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The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi. And yet in the prequels we see Jedi trained from very young age, Vader was old and later he murders the younglings.

Han had a hard life but was presented as a pilot from the get go and Leia presumably had royal self defence training and llater oin in the EU she also needed training and was weaker than say Luke, Mara and her children as she devoted less time to it due to being a full time politician. Her daughter Jaina was trained right from the get go and later in life trained with Boba Fett for dirty fighting.

That is the difference.

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.

Obi Wan trained Luke, and Luke could fly the T-16 and it was mentioned in the movie so it was established he had some piloting skills already. Jumping in the Falcon and flying it is not such a big deal its probably similar to driving a car now. Flying it through a ruined Star Destroyer in RPG terms though is similar to the Death Star trench run, the Hoth Asteroid field, of flying into the DS II- its not something a rookie pilot would generally attempt in the Star Wars universe. Yes I know they burned down the old EU but that might be part of the problem you don't really erase the expectations and tropes of it and they are busy plugging parts of it back in often kinda in a bad way (new Thrawn is good, but not as good as old Thrawn).

Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.

I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.


But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.

Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.


But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.

Onscreen yes, off screen it was several hours but he taught him the basics of the Jedi code and how to see with the force. He was a prodigy obviously and picked up several force powers. He also got his ass handed to him in ESB. Rey is overpowered by comparison with the in universe Skywalker/chosen one thing. The Skywalker bloodline thing doesn't need to be the be all and end all of Jedi in the Star Wars universe but if you are going to subvert it you probably need a good reasons for it as in the new canon and old it is heavily implied that natural talent is inherited and if your parents are both Jedi/Sith and powerful ones you will be a powerful force user (the Skywalker kids in the old EU, other Sith/Jedi children).

Lukes kid Ben kind of had "child of destiny" stamped all over him, both parents were Jedi masters. Jaina Solo (Hans kid) had a similar deal. Destiny being a big Star Wars trope.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.

I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue. But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.

I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue. But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.

And the other Jedi wasn't trying to kill him they were trying to turn him. Luke ran from Vader once Obi Wan was struck down, and lost in ESB.

One thing I did like about Snoke getting killed was Kylos thoughts did not betray him. This has been used in other sci fi and the old Star Wars. The Jedi/Sith can only sense the surface thoughts and emotions. They set Kylo up needing more training at the end of TFA, and basically threw Snoke away but probably a movie to early.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in Force Awakens and Phasma was even more of a chump.
I love Phasma, bc she isn't a chump, she's a self-serving villain. She probably doesn't give a damn about the 1st Order to begin with. THey should have left in the deleted scene where she shoots her own troops because Finn told them about how she sold out the Starkiller in order to have a chance at survival. I love seeing a villain who will sacrifice anyone and anything, for themselves. None of this "everyone is a hero in their own mind" crap. Some villains just don't care about anyone else.

Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi.
She didn't defeat Kylo, she held him off and got a decent strike in. After he was severely injured.
And she literally already was shown to be a competent fighter.

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.
Luke is much more of a mary sue than Rey, insofar as either of them are, further insofar as the term even has any value.

It's so weird to see these same bunk points over and over and over again.

I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.

Has is uncanny, I'd argue. Especially in hyperspace navigation. But yeah, the force users seems to able to just, fly stuff real good with no training.

Also, she already is familiar with that ship, so we don't even need to speculate that she has the force piloting ability to make sense of her flying it. She just has to be a good pilot, with force tuned reflexes. She is so familiar with the ship, that she sees it as a piece of junk due to the modifications that have been made to it.


Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not the first.

IT's just wild to me how many of the endlessly repeated arguments against TLJ are easily debunked, and yet keep popping up.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
I love Phasma, bc she isn't a chump, she's a self-serving villain. She probably doesn't give a damn about the 1st Order to begin with. THey should have left in the deleted scene where she shoots her own troops because Finn told them about how she sold out the Starkiller in order to have a chance at survival. I love seeing a villain who will sacrifice anyone and anything, for themselves. None of this "everyone is a hero in their own mind" crap. Some villains just don't care about anyone else.


She didn't defeat Kylo, she held him off and got a decent strike in. After he was severely injured.
And she literally already was shown to be a competent fighter.


Luke is much more of a mary sue than Rey, insofar as either of them are, further insofar as the term even has any value.

It's so weird to see these same bunk points over and over and over again.



Has is uncanny, I'd argue. Especially in hyperspace navigation. But yeah, the force users seems to able to just, fly stuff real good with no training.

Also, she already is familiar with that ship, so we don't even need to speculate that she has the force piloting ability to make sense of her flying it. She just has to be a good pilot, with force tuned reflexes. She is so familiar with the ship, that she sees it as a piece of junk due to the modifications that have been made to it.


Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not the first.

IT's just wild to me how many of the endlessly repeated arguments against TLJ are easily debunked, and yet keep popping up.

Using the force to survive in space is fine, its how it was done. Leia looked like she was flying through space.

Also remember if some of thee concerns were not valid why was Solo a flop, why are they bringing back JJ Abrams, why have they sidelined Kathleen Kennedy, why has Rian Johnson semi apologised on twitter. They are in damage control. Solo lost money, they canceld all the other side project movies, Rians trilogy is up in the air. TLJ made almost half the amount TFA did and barely more than Rogue One where the expectations of Rogue One were a lot lower than a main story film. Its not the actors fault at all more the writers, directors and the other people involved.

Sure some people probably loved TLJ movies are inherently subjective but JJ Abrams was not supposed to do episode IX originally.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not the first.

It is probably worse then that if the ship is also accelerating away from her after she gets blown out into space. Like trying to pull yourself back into a moving car if you get thrown out of it.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Exactly, Luke did not even use a Lightsaber in Starwars except in practice against a drone.

Yup its called "character development" and its an issue in the new movies. Hell Rogue One arguably did a better job of it. Not everyone needs a back story but if you are gonna pull out a lightsaber and use it well generally you should be a Jedi Knight or at least a padawan. Luke was clumsy with it along with Han who used it as a tool in ESB.

And being trained is a big thing in the OT, new cannon, prequel trilogy, the RPGs, the old EU. Obviously Sidious and Mace Windu don't need to be trained but its implied with Jedi Master and Sith Lord titles. You also have to train as Revan in KoToR. Obviously they wanted to make Rey heroic and powerful etc but she has a lot of the same problems Elminster and Drizzt have (they're kinda boring).

Also bigger and better isn't always beter (Star Killer Base, Rey> Luke by a lot respective to their development, (Yoda being Sonic the Hedgehog). If its to unbelievable even in a universe like Star Wars it just comes across as OP/stupid/lame etc.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.

He isn't uncanny, because he has a career's worth of training to get to be that good a pilot. As opposed to Rey, who as far as we know has only ever flown speeder-type vehicles, or young Anakin, who was flipping 9 years old or something.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.

Note that, by and large, the disconnect is only in rate of gain. Luke and Rey don't display huge abilities you can't imagine, say, Obi Wan being able to use. The real difference is *how fast* they get those powers. In the prequels, a Jedi gets years and years of training to develop their powers. In the original and current trilogy, powers manifest over the course of days.

In the tradition of Stan Lee, I offer a "No-Prize" explanation: Luke and Rey are drinking from a fire hose.

In the prequels, we have a large Jedi order of Force users. They all draw on the same source of power, and it supports them just fine. Prequel Jedi are like... washing dishes in the kitchen sink.

Luke and Rey, however, live in a time with very few Force users. The source of power is largely untapped, and they get to draw on *all of it*. They get to use a pressure washer for the same tasks. To start with, this looks really impressive, but there is little understanding, knowledge, control or finesse to it, which is why Luke can't give Vader a beat-down in ESB. Vader's had a lifetime of training, so the fire hose isn't a direct threat.

In addition, the Jedi we see in the prequels are all about *control*. The first thing those Jedi kids learn is probably how to *not* manifest power, to prevent accident and harm. The years of training are then, bit by bit, revealing how to use those powers safely and with finesse. Luke and Rey don't have never been taught how to not manifest their power - when it comes, it comes full bore, without restraint.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
He isn't uncanny, because he has a career's worth of training to get to be that good a pilot. As opposed to Rey, who as far as we know has only ever flown speeder-type vehicles, or young Anakin, who was flipping 9 years old or something.

They also found Han in a dive bar where pilots hang out and he was boasting about how good he was. Its basically established that he is a pilot and supposedly a good one. Rey being good with a staff is not an issue at all and I liked that scene.

The OTs are a lot more restrained- Luke, the lightsaber duel choreography (cf Yoda and Mustafar duel).
 

TLJ was not an out right awful movie (we have AotC for that),
...
Rey is powerful (to powerful) and kind of boring because of it and saddled with a recycled back ground (desert orphan like Luke).
Which was TFA, and not TLJ.

I eman they cold have just had her be a survivor of Kylos Jedi massacre or someone from the new Jedi spirited her away.
Why?
Why can't she just be some nobody? Why did she need some special past?
She was abandoned when she was like 5. It's not she would have remembered much had she been Luke's student.

What was Obi-Wan before he was a Jedi? Who were Qui-Gon Jinn's parents?
We don't know. It doesn't matter.

Lucasfilm kinda knows they messed up they have sidelined Kathleen Kennedy and brought back JJ Abrams, the original plan was 3 different directors but no overall plotline or guidelines to have those 3 directors have the same goal in mind.
1) Kathleen Kennedy's contract was renewed in late September of this year. They're not sidelining her.
2) J.J. Abrams was hired for Episode IX in mid-September 2017, three months BEFORE The Last Jedi premiered.
3) Rian Johnson remains in charge of overseeing a new trilogy of films, so Lucasarts is happy with his work.

Yeah, it was probably a mistake not to have an overall plan for the trilogy before they started.
Oh well. It's not like the original trilogy had a plan. Lucas made up a TONNE of stuff as he went along.
 

Note that, by and large, the disconnect is only in rate of gain. Luke and Rey don't display huge abilities you can't imagine, say, Obi Wan being able to use. The real difference is *how fast* they get those powers. In the prequels, a Jedi gets years and years of training to develop their powers. In the original and current trilogy, powers manifest over the course of days.

In the tradition of Stan Lee, I offer a "No-Prize" explanation: Luke and Rey are drinking from a fire hose.

In the prequels, we have a large Jedi order of Force users. They all draw on the same source of power, and it supports them just fine. Prequel Jedi are like... washing dishes in the kitchen sink.

Luke and Rey, however, live in a time with very few Force users. The source of power is largely untapped, and they get to draw on *all of it*. They get to use a pressure washer for the same tasks. To start with, this looks really impressive, but there is little understanding, knowledge, control or finesse to it, which is why Luke can't give Vader a beat-down in ESB. Vader's had a lifetime of training, so the fire hose isn't a direct threat.

In addition, the Jedi we see in the prequels are all about *control*. The first thing those Jedi kids learn is probably how to *not* manifest power, to prevent accident and harm. The years of training are then, bit by bit, revealing how to use those powers safely and with finesse. Luke and Rey don't have never been taught how to not manifest their power - when it comes, it comes full bore, without restraint.
The best argument I’ve heard is that being a Force user requires very little training. The Jedi begins training at such a young age not because they need training in using the Force, but in training to be a Jedi. The training in detachment and general monastic lifestyle. Control over emotions. Restraint.
Basically indoctrinating children so they don’t fall to the Dark Side.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Which was TFA, and not TLJ.


Why?
Why can't she just be some nobody? Why did she need some special past?
She was abandoned when she was like 5. It's not she would have remembered much had she been Luke's student.

What was Obi-Wan before he was a Jedi? Who were Qui-Gon Jinn's parents?
We don't know. It doesn't matter.


1) Kathleen Kennedy's contract was renewed in late September of this year. They're not sidelining her.
2) J.J. Abrams was hired for Episode IX in mid-September 2017, three months BEFORE The Last Jedi premiered.
3) Rian Johnson remains in charge of overseeing a new trilogy of films, so Lucasarts is happy with his work.

Yeah, it was probably a mistake not to have an overall plan for the trilogy before they started.
Oh well. It's not like the original trilogy had a plan. Lucas made up a TONNE of stuff as he went along.

Obi Wan and Qui-Gon-Jinn were Jedi Masters when they originally appeared. They didn't need to be trained like how it was established Han was already a good pilot.

The characters don't always nee d a back ground of course, had they made a new Star Wars movie with a Jedi Knight protagonist of course you would not need an explanation. If you're a Jedi Knight its kind of already established you're a badass.

Using another example Hulk Hogan in the 80's, Stone Cold Steve Austin in the 90's. One was booked as a superhero, the other was different.

Different is fine, different is good just don't muck it up. TLJ was not the worst Star Wars movie and if it existed all by itself it might even be a decent movie. Its a sequel though that threw out a lot of logic that universe had. No ones complaining about Jyn Erso because the movie was great, it made sense in that universe, the character was interesting, and it all worked well.
 
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