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The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Kylo and Rey as lovers ...

Ew.

Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy. When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.

He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.
 

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dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Ew.

Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy. When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.

He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.

See, it works, you are already adding verve to the idea. To paraphrase Tolstoy's “All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” It's the fact that it would probably play out like an unhappy romance is key, tragedy is more gripping story-wise.

Rey as the Red Queen? Pregnant mother fleeing to the wilderness to protect her unborn child? There are a huge amounts of tangents that could play off the romance angle.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Ew.

Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy. When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.

He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.

Exactly this.

Also, I don’t understand how people expected or wanted random heel turns?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Rey as the Red Queen? Pregnant mother fleeing to the wilderness to protect her unborn child? There are a huge amounts of tangents that could play off the romance angle.

Note that you are thus defining Rey's role in the story in terms of her romantic relationship to the man. Which is already the dominant mode of fiction, to date. Not so much "verve" as "cliche".

Thanks, I find it more interesting for her to be out on her own, not needing the man to define who or what she is to the story.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
I find it more interesting for her to be out on her own, not needing the man to define who or what she is to the story.

So you liked the slaughter of the room full of people together angle? People are always defined by their interactions with each other. I suppose if you believe in some sort of libertarian ubermensch, she would make sense to you? It's foreign to me.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Ew.

Kylo Ren in an immature, entitled, self-absorbed anger-puppy. When he gets angry, he throws literal tantrums, lashing out with deadly violence.

He is not a mentally or emotionally stable adult, not capable of romantic love in the standard sense.
Also, I don’t understand how people expected or wanted random heel turns?
Because REDEMPTION ARC!! Woo!! (You have to throw your hands straight up in the air while you shout it for it to have maximum impact.)

No, but seriously, because Darth Vader was apparently redeemed in his story (does Vader-ghost really signify that? I'm not entirely sure) a not insignificant portion of viewers also thought, and wanted, for Kylo to follow down that same path somehow. Or something like that. Love conquers all? Personally I'd prefer Kylo to lose all self-control and just go straight nuthouse cuckoo in the last film. That would be new. I don't think we've had truly crazy villains in Star Wars.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Kylo's arc eclipses Rey's, huh. I find it interesting that people think she should stay a virginal murder-machine, that is better, more pure? Also, does a woman lose her agency in a romantic relationship? Very strange. I think some of it is immaturity, which Star Wars has plenty of; even though Rogue One, shows there is a market for a more mature audience.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
So you liked the slaughter of the room full of people together angle? People are always defined by their interactions with each other. I suppose if you believe in some sort of libertarian ubermensch, she would make sense to you? It's foreign to me.

What, on earth, are you taking about? Libertarian ubermensch? Because Rey shouldn't be thought of as a male character's girlfriend? What has that go to do with a libertarian übermensch?
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
What, on earth, are you taking about? Libertarian ubermensch? Because Rey shouldn't be thought of as a male character's girlfriend? What has that go to do with a libertarian übermensch?

Do you believe that a woman, as a sexual creature, it demeans them? That is what I mean, it is immaturity, mommy issues. I figure the whole pure violence maiden, like Brunhilda - that's the libertarian ubermensch; it doesn't mean much to me as I'm more eastern, not german.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
I'd like to rant a little about this whole business of things having meanings. I think I've said this here before years ago, but you know what ruined a large part of my love for Star Wars? The EU. Yes, you read that right. In my opinion the Expanded Universe was the worst thing that ever happened to Star Wars. Not because it's somehow bad to have more stories in the universe you like. No, that was a good thing. The ruining, the bad, it was the quantifying, the over-explaining, the information overload. It was having to have every single thing in the Star Wars universe somehow have a significant meaning that had to connect to every other meaning there ever was. It was people creating this dictionary like super defined mass of dry data that sucked all life out of the whole damn lot of it. You don't have to have a meaning for every single thing. The same thing goes for Midichlorians. There was no need for those. It's perfectly fine for a thing to exist in a story and not have it be explained to the finest detail. And yes, while I do like Solo, having the dice explained was stupid. Do you remember Ratts Tyerell? Do you know what his goal for the Boonta was? Did you know he had just become a dad when he died in Phantom Menace? Do we know what material the grains of sand that his pod flew through were made of? I don't know that last one, but I'm guessing the chances of there being an actual answer are higher than zero.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Kylo's arc eclipses Rey's, huh. I find it interesting that people think she should stay a virginal murder-machine, that is better, more pure? Also, does a woman lose her agency in a romantic relationship? Very strange. I think some of it is immaturity, which Star Wars has plenty of; even though Rogue One, shows there is a market for a more mature audience.

It is just because it is an American movie made for an American audience.
 

dragoner

Dying in Chargen
Maybe. /shrug

I'd like to rant a little about this whole business of things having meanings. I think I've said this here before years ago, but you know what ruined a large part of my love for Star Wars? The EU.

This has relevance to me, while I don't know much about the EU, I remain peripheral to the fandom at large, I did buy a Star Wars t-shirt at Macy's the other day, except that is probably just nostalgia. I don't really think there is a problem with the Disney Star Wars, it's me, not them. I have simply outgrown the franchise. I will still go see the movies, knowing they won't ever get back to what it meant to me as a kid, and I remain in the shadow of what was.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Do you believe that a woman, as a sexual creature, it demeans them?

Hardly. You are taking only part of the point.

Broadly speaking, in the history of literature and film, female characters are far too frequently defined by their role in the male character's life. They are most often defined by their sexuality. It is, as I said above, cliche.

That's the real point - there are already tons of female characters who are the male's significant other, in one form or another. The female who *doesn't* become the love interest is more rare, and therefore more interesting, imho.

I figure the whole pure violence maiden, like Brunhilda - that's the libertarian ubermensch; it doesn't mean much to me as I'm more eastern, not german.

It has nothing to do with the scene where they slaughter Snoke's guards, ro any other bit of violence from the movie. That is a false dichotomy - romance with Kylo Ren or slaughter! As if those are the only choices? There's a world of other narratives, dude.

And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.
 
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dragoner

Dying in Chargen
You are taking only part of the point.

I'm continuing with what was already there:

Kylo Ren: Rey... I want you to join me. We can rule together ...

A natural end result, and in line with other themes like:

Rose Tico: We're going to win this war not by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love!

Rey does have feelings for Kylo. Heartbreak and desire have a certain gravitas that override cliche, not that Star Wars doesn't have a ton of cliche in it already. It is a chance to develop the characters, but obviously in a more mature manner. Romance or slaughter are the choices the movie made, I just observed it, and feel that romance would have been the better choice. *In General* I find a lot of the violence gratuitous in that the outcome is preordained, so in the end it is only a see how they win scene. That is more of the cliche of the movies, it's filler.



And if "libertarian" enters into it at all, you're leaning way too far to the political.

More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
More just descriptive of the Rey "Going Their Own Way" thing.

First the libertarian thing, and now Men's Rights Activist lingo? Pardon me for a second...

Moderator Hat ON

As a moderator, I now must point you at The Forum Rules (there's a link to them at the bottom of every forum page). You will note that we have some rules about these things - no politics, no religion (under "Keep It On Topic") and if we see significant sexism, racism, or similar messages, you will be asked to stop (under "Keep it Inclusive").

You may not have *intended* to run afoul of these. But I'm going to have to ask you to leave such references out of your discussion. It *will* be taken poorly, if it continues.

Sorry if you find that restrictive, but that's the way it is. If you have questions about this, please take them to e-mail or Private Message with a member of the moderating staff. Do not argue the point in-thread, please and thank you.

Moderator Hat OFF


We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of space wizards with laser swords.
 


Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
Not as such. While they haven't really defined it in the new movies, going on the old canon, the Sith were a specific tradition of users of the Dark Side of the Force. Snoke never uses the term "Sith". Andy Serkis (the actor for Snoke) went so far as to say explicitly that Snoke was not a Sith Lord.

Snoke was some other user of the Dark Side. So, Kylo Ren is not Sith either.

Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things. Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.

You are of course on point in regards to Snoke. We don't know who or what Snoke really was. Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order.

I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits. Especially if we see a jump in time.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah, I too felt that was pretty questionable. He does do a lot of Sith-like things. Use the force, fight with a laser sword. Kill his master to become the new. So I may have just conflated it. Or assumed, that is one of Ren's goals, as at least... he used to want to emulate Dark Vader.

You are of course on point in regards to Snoke. We don't know who or what Snoke really was. Some user of the force with darker intentions obviously, but outside of that, no clue as to an organization beyond the First Order.

I'll be interested in seeing what Ren's goals are once the next portion of the trilogy hits. Especially if we see a jump in time.

Kylo Ren is a Dark Jedi not a Sith.
 



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