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The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

Zardnaar

Legend
Describe what this is using only new canon sources.

The old EU is strong in this one.

Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition.

New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition.

New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.

Sorta that was the Jedi councils position on it. Later on they added in a heap of other traditions light and dark. Generally its more like a Jedi who falls to the dark side but is not a Sith or any other force tradition. A more generic thing might be any dark sider using a lightsaber but is not a memebr of another tradition is a dark jedi.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.

In universe the differences between dark jedi, Sith etc are mostly academic to the general populace. If someone can fire force lightning its gonna suck. Knowledge of the Sith was suppressed, only senior Jedi, occultists and maybe specialists in history would have knowledge of them It would be like knowledge of old Roman mysteries for their religious ceremonies, the average person would not know about them.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.
Entirely in new canon, Kylo Ren is a former Jedi who has gone Dark. Thus, Dark Jedi is a perfectly acceptable description.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.

WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.
 

WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.
Dooku was a Jedi. He trained Qui-Gon Jin.
It just doesn’t come up much.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.


Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith.

I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ.

They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.
 


Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith.

I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ.

They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.
It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.

As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.

As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.

Context is the kicker. The Empire was roughly space Nazi Germany/USSR analog, they were evil and it was a new story.

TFA and co are basically sequels. The new canon has explained some things but on screen for example they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters. You get less information than in ANH with Luke talking to Kenobi about the clone wars. You don't need a vast explanation but even 5 minutes would help and they don't do that.

Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc. Doesn't help that there is virtually no character development with the 3 main heroes and the villains are basically chumps.

TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass) and then in TLJ- Hux chump/comic relief, Phasma chump, Snoke chump and its purely down to the story. Kylo comes out looking a bit better but he got tricked by Luke so is a chump (for the second time back to back in 2 movies). Its hard to root for the villains defeat when they are more comical than threatening. They started out well at the start of TFA with Kylo holding the blaster bolt in place.

The main problem is they jobbed out all the villains, and the heroes are very generic so its hard to care about any of them. Even Rogue One pulled this off with the relationship between Jynn and her father. She was also a badass and her sacrifice meant something despite only having 2 hours or so to tell that story.

Sure the villains got their comeuppance in the OT but it was in the 3rd movie they killed of Fett/Emperor/Vader. Even have somehting simple like rather than desert Orphan 2.0 Kylo could have killed Reys parents in the opening scene of TFA. Avoids rehash 2.0, gives you an explanation/motive and Rey a simple few lines could tie Rey to Luke so she could have had some training. Evil king/Empire, royal orphan, evil empire is classic, doesn't require that much set up.
 
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Context is the kicker. The Empire was roughly space Nazi Germany/USSR analog, they were evil and it was a new story.

TFA and co are basically sequels. The new canon has explained some things but on screen for example they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters. You get less information than in ANH with Luke talking to Kenobi about the clone wars. You don't need a vast explanation but even 5 minutes would help and they don't do that.
I agree. The Force Awakens really dropped the ball with that. We have no idea of the scale or scope. It's terrible, terrible worldbuilding.

Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc. Doesn't help that there is virtually no character development with the 3 main heroes and the villains are basically chumps.
Well, Poe is only a lead in the second movie, and has a tonne of character development where's humbled repeatedly and forced to be a leader.
Finn goes from being a mindless killing machine to a coward who wants to just run away to someone willing to sacrifice themselves.
And Rey learns independence, and is able to be herself and live her own life without waiting from someone from her past to save her or give her meaning, while also being willing to walk away from Luke and not rely on him and his teachings to define her.

Quick: what's the character development for Leia and Han in Episodes V and VI?

TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass) and then in TLJ- Hux chump/comic relief, Phasma chump, Snoke chump and its purely down to the story. Kylo comes out looking a bit better but he got tricked by Luke so is a chump (for the second time back to back in 2 movies). Its hard to root for the villains defeat when they are more comical than threatening. They started out well at the start of TFA with Kylo holding the blaster bolt in place.
It's not like Ren got hit in the jetback by a blind guy, flew into the side of a sail barge, and was eaten by a giant sand sphincter. That kind of defines "chump".

This is the thing: the problems you have in the new movies almost always exist in the original trilogy. The difference is you're willing to just completely overlook or forgive those problems because you loved the movie before you noticed the problems

Sure the villains got their comeuppance in the OT but it was in the 3rd movie they killed of Fett/Emperor/Vader. Even have somehting simple like rather than desert Orphan 2.0 Kylo could have killed Reys parents in the opening scene of TFA. Avoids rehash 2.0, gives you an explanation/motive and Rey a simple few lines could tie Rey to Luke so she could have had some training. Evil king/Empire, royal orphan, evil empire is classic, doesn't require that much set up.
So... you want the First Order to kill Rey's parents as a motive exactly like the Empire killed Luke's adoptive parents... to make her less of a rehash?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters.

Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc.

Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie. And they are willing to destroy entire inhabited planets to get what they want.

Dearie me, I don't know why it matters! I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!

Hint: it is because they are *bad guys*. We don't need to know the history to see that they're brutal, deadly, and not the kind of folks you want wandering around with planet-killing weapons.


TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass)

It might help for you define the term, "chump" as you are using it.

The traditional definition is "foolish or easily deceived" and has nothing to do with how badass you are. A chump is beaten by outwitting them, not by outfighting them on their own terms. The trolls in The Hobbit are chumps, and completely physically overwhelm the heroes.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie. And they are willing to destroy entire inhabited planets to get what they want.

Dearie me, I don't know why it matters! I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!

Hint: it is because they are *bad guys*. We don't need to know the history to see that they're brutal, deadly, and not the kind of folks you want wandering around with planet-killing weapons.




It might help for you define the term, "chump" as you are using it.

The traditional definition is "foolish or easily deceived" and has nothing to do with how badass you are. A chump is beaten by outwitting them, not by outfighting them on their own terms. The trolls in The Hobbit are chumps, and completely physically overwhelm the heroes.

Not claiming the First order is not evil but basically why should we care they are evil.

Lets put it another way. Say Rey goes forth in Episode IX and deals with/kills Kylo Ren yay the good guys win. But it was never in doubt, Kylo threw tantrums in TFA, lost a battle, got made to look like a chump in Episode TLJ by being fooled by Luke and Rey is superwomen you may as well put her in a blue and red super hero costume. That is boring because Kylo is a weak villain there no emotional attachment for him getting his ass kicked because he has already lost twice (cf Vader). Assuming they don't pull a swerve by a double turn (Rey dark, Kylo Light) or pull something like Kylo wins or they both die.

And they could have avoided this just by a few tweaks. They lost about 40% of the revenue from TFA to TLJ, Rogue One cf Solo lost over half if that pattern holds Episode IX is heading towards Solo levels of losing money (maybe they film it cheaper and turn a small profit IDK). TLJ did not have the fans going back and seeing the movie over and over again like TFA did (or it attracted a lot less people take your pick).

Take Rey tweak her background slightly and she could have been a Jedi survivor, the last Jedi Knight (and it feeds into being the Last Jedi), you don't really need to know much more she is a Jedi Knight ergo she is already a bad ass (like Obi Wan in the prequels). It doesn't bring up the issue of her parents (-1 for being a rehash, -1 for a crap follow up). TFA is mostly the same tweaking it for the new back ground. TLJ rolls around, Rey is a Jedi- the last one even makes sense yes? Have Kylo get trained by Snoke (as hinted at end of TFA), he makes a comeback, kills Luke not some projection (makes him a badass, Snoke less of a chump because he trained him), Evil wins round 2 a'la ESB, and episode IX you have a climatic showdown (Rey vs dude who killed Luke). Lukes valiant last stand is enough of a distraction for the resistance to get away more or less like TLJ as is. TLJ screens more or less as it but instead of Rey being trained its Kylo with Snoke (or have both of them get trained why not).

Finn got stuck in a boring pointless sub plot, Poe looked like an idiot for getting his entire command killed for being an idiot. Yeah sure in ANH a lot of rebels died in the Death Star run but its because they're desperate not stupid and they're dead anyway if they don't make an effort.

Most of the main cast are chumps. Chumps basically being easily defeated in a stupid/foolish way or doing stupid and foolish things (and getting defeated). Sure Luke rushed of being reckless but there at least was a bit of plot protection for him as he cared about his friends. They all survived and his stupidity was limited to his friends.

Earlier comment about character development. Han ANH went from ruthless mercenary type to good hearted rebel. Followed up on in ESBwith comments about deathmark. Leia, senatorial princess, becomes very handy with blaster, rebel commando RoTJ. Luke farmboy to Jedi Knight. Hell even Lando did the right thing in the end and tried to fix his screw up (successfully).

Rey superwomen right from the get go none of Lukes weaknesses . Poe Great pilot turned into blithering idiot who got his squadron mates killed (and disobeyed orders for no good reason), Finn coward, became heroic but in a boring stupid sub plot but at least they made the effort I suppose. Hell since you don't need to be trained with a lightsaber anymore just chuck that kid at the end of TLJ a lightsaber and point him at the First Order. He should at least knock off Hux right? Put all three of the new heroes together, they almost qualify to carry Landos cape and he was a supporting character (and Donald Glover kinda stole Solo as well, Billy Dee was great in the OT). Lando has "it". Even Finn deserting the First Order doesn't mean that much as he didn't pull the trigger so doesn't really have anything to redeem as he wasn't that bad to begin with (cf Han shooting Greedo, theatrical release).

TLDR. Whos the villain in Episode IX and why should we care?
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Well, we see this new faction wantonly slaughter an entire village in the opening of the movie. And they are willing to destroy entire inhabited planets to get what they want.

Dearie me, I don't know why it matters! I don't know why I should care that the heroes oppose them!

Hint: it is because they are *bad guys*. We don't need to know the history to see that they're brutal, deadly, and not the kind of folks you want wandering around with planet-killing weapons.

It might help for you define the term, "chump" as you are using it.

The traditional definition is "foolish or easily deceived" and has nothing to do with how badass you are. A chump is beaten by outwitting them, not by outfighting them on their own terms. The trolls in The Hobbit are chumps, and completely physically overwhelm the heroes.

Also, the opening scroll tells us who the First Order is. They’re an expansionist successor to the Empire, that the New republic isn’t taking seriously enough, leading to Leia going rogue to oppose them. It’s...not that complicated.
 

And they could have avoided this just by a few tweaks. They lost about 40% of the revenue from TFA to TLJ, Rogue One cf Solo lost over half if that pattern holds Episode IX is heading towards Solo levels of losing money (maybe they film it cheaper and turn a small profit IDK). TLJ did not have the fans going back and seeing the movie over and over again like TFA did (or it attracted a lot less people take your pick).

Your analysis of financials is inaccurate. The drop in revenue from TFA to TLJ is almost identical to the drop in revenue between ANH and ESB, and is on par for similar trilogies (Indiana Jones, Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, etc). Rogue One and Solo are a separate series (Anthology) not expected to get the same turn out. And while Solo didn't match Rogue One and didn't match Wall Street's projections, it still made just shy of $400M on a $300M budget.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Your analysis of financials is inaccurate. The drop in revenue from TFA to TLJ is almost identical to the drop in revenue between ANH and ESB, and is on par for similar trilogies (Indiana Jones, Back to the Future, Jurassic Park, etc). Rogue One and Solo are a separate series (Anthology) not expected to get the same turn out. And while Solo didn't match Rogue One and didn't match Wall Street's projections, it still made just shy of $400M on a $300M budget.

Solo needed 450 million to break even apparently, the makers of the film won't see all of the 400 million as movie theatres take a cut and other expenses.

TLJ underperformed for expectation along with Solo. Rogue One over performed (they expected around 800 million IIRC got over a billion). They were not expecting TFA numbers for TLJ basically for the reasons you mentioned.
 

Exactly this.

Also, I don’t understand how people expected or wanted random heel turns?

Because I like them playing with the idea that maybe Kylo Ren is not beyond saving. It was certainly a thing in TFA, where his humanity is his weakness. I also like the idea that Rey's powers may be coming from a place of darkness. Kylo already tried to reach out to her in TFA... If you're going to introduce that element, I feel you should follow up on it. It's an interesting idea to me that maybe the two characters as we know them, are not that black and white after all. Maybe they can meet somewhere in the middle? So far Rey has been very predictable and things have been going her way a lot. I feel characters need to be challenged in both their convictions and goals, in order to create a compelling narrative.

Maybe Kylo Ren could be lured to the light side of the force through his weakness to Rey? Maybe Rey could be lured away from Luke Skywalker, after learning the crime he committed against his former student?

Perhaps the same darkness that he saw in Kylo Ren, also lies in Rey? I think this is interesting stuff. Certainly more interesting than what we got in TLJ.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Whos the villain in Episode IX and why should we care?

Kylo & the 1st order.

But given that TLJ was Dumb (heroes) & Dumber (1st order) in space, our heroes don't really have much to fear from them.

As for Kylo? I stopped caring about him the moment he took his helmet off & started pitching a tantrum in TFA.
From that point on he just wasn't a credible character (let alone a villain) anymore to me.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
Kylo & the 1st order.

But given that TLJ was Dumb (heroes) & Dumber (1st order) in space, our heroes don't really have much to fear from them.

As for Kylo? I stopped caring about him the moment he took his helmet off & started pitching a tantrum in TFA.
From that point on he just wasn't a credible character (let alone a villain) anymore to me.

I actually liked that. I agree that it hurt his "villainy", but we have our bad ass dark lords already and an attempt of topping that was kinda bound to fail anyway, having him more of a "wannabe" felt interesting and new. But it feels they really didn't go with that anywhere yet.
 


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