The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

[billd91]

Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi. And yet in the prequels we see Jedi trained from very young age, Vader was old and later he murders the younglings.

Han had a hard life but was presented as a pilot from the get go and Leia presumably had royal self defence training and llater oin in the EU she also needed training and was weaker than say Luke, Mara and her children as she devoted less time to it due to being a full time politician. Her daughter Jaina was trained right from the get go and later in life trained with Boba Fett for dirty fighting.

That is the difference.

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.

 

[Zardnaar]

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.

Obi Wan trained Luke, and Luke could fly the T-16 and it was mentioned in the movie so it was established he had some piloting skills already. Jumping in the Falcon and flying it is not such a big deal its probably similar to driving a car now. Flying it through a ruined Star Destroyer in RPG terms though is similar to the Death Star trench run, the Hoth Asteroid field, of flying into the DS II- its not something a rookie pilot would generally attempt in the Star Wars universe. Yes I know they burned down the old EU but that might be part of the problem you don't really erase the expectations and tropes of it and they are busy plugging parts of it back in often kinda in a bad way (new Thrawn is good, but not as good as old Thrawn).

Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.

 

[Umbran]

Why train for years to be a Jedi- just dump your kid on a desert planet seems to work better.

I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.

 

[billd91]

Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.


But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.

 

[billd91]

I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.

Han's piloting should qualify. His flying around the big asteroid despite not knowing the terrain was pretty darn uncanny.

 

[Zardnaar]

Obi Wan trained Luke for, what? The length of time it took Han to finish his work in the cockpit, walk back to the common area, have a conversation, and then head back as they were nearing Alderaan? Whole lot of training there. It lasted all of a couple of minutes.


But you actually do highlight something kind of important - there's a vast disconnect between the original trilogy and the current trilogy.... compared to the prequels. Both the original and current trilogy make do with Force-sensitive adults and turn them into big, damn heroes. The prequels in contrast ultimately serve to illustrate how weak the Jedi institutional approach was.

Onscreen yes, off screen it was several hours but he taught him the basics of the Jedi code and how to see with the force. He was a prodigy obviously and picked up several force powers. He also got his ass handed to him in ESB. Rey is overpowered by comparison with the in universe Skywalker/chosen one thing. The Skywalker bloodline thing doesn't need to be the be all and end all of Jedi in the Star Wars universe but if you are going to subvert it you probably need a good reasons for it as in the new canon and old it is heavily implied that natural talent is inherited and if your parents are both Jedi/Sith and powerful ones you will be a powerful force user (the Skywalker kids in the old EU, other Sith/Jedi children).

Lukes kid Ben kind of had "child of destiny" stamped all over him, both parents were Jedi masters. Jaina Solo (Hans kid) had a similar deal. Destiny being a big Star Wars trope.

 

[Shasarak]

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.

I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue. But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.

 

[Zardnaar]

There are so many problems with TFA but consider for a second that it took Luke three movies before he could successfully go up against another Jedi.

I think that if they had the decency of at least trying to include a training montage for Rey then she would not be such a Mary Sue. But really Rey is the least of TFA problems when you consider the plot holes that you could fly a ship through in hyperspace.

And the other Jedi wasn't trying to kill him they were trying to turn him. Luke ran from Vader once Obi Wan was struck down, and lost in ESB.

One thing I did like about Snoke getting killed was Kylos thoughts did not betray him. This has been used in other sci fi and the old Star Wars. The Jedi/Sith can only sense the surface thoughts and emotions. They set Kylo up needing more training at the end of TFA, and basically threw Snoke away but probably a movie to early.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in Force Awakens and Phasma was even more of a chump.

I love Phasma, bc she isn't a chump, she's a self-serving villain. She probably doesn't give a damn about the 1st Order to begin with. THey should have left in the deleted scene where she shoots her own troops because Finn told them about how she sold out the Starkiller in order to have a chance at survival. I love seeing a villain who will sacrifice anyone and anything, for themselves. None of this "everyone is a hero in their own mind" crap. Some villains just don't care about anyone else.

Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi.

She didn't defeat Kylo, she held him off and got a decent strike in. After he was severely injured.
And she literally already was shown to be a competent fighter.

What training? Luke shows up at the rebel base, they put him in a top-of-the-line star fighter. And he has no significant mishaps - a big contrast with Rey's sloppy flying.
Rey, whose scrappiness with a staff we've already seen (by your Luke logic, we know she's had some training or can assume some skill), manages to hold off and get a couple of licks in on a badly wounded dark jedi, not a fresh one.

And I don't really know why you're bringing up Han and Leia's problems from the original trilogy - it's not like we aren't seeing similar things happen to Finn and Poe.

Luke is much more of a mary sue than Rey, insofar as either of them are, further insofar as the term even has any value.

It's so weird to see these same bunk points over and over and over again.

I think that there is sufficient evidence that there's a force-related piloting ability - Anakin, Luke, and Rey all show signs of it. They are the only uncannily good flyers we've seen.

Has is uncanny, I'd argue. Especially in hyperspace navigation. But yeah, the force users seems to able to just, fly stuff real good with no training.

Also, she already is familiar with that ship, so we don't even need to speculate that she has the force piloting ability to make sense of her flying it. She just has to be a good pilot, with force tuned reflexes. She is so familiar with the ship, that she sees it as a piece of junk due to the modifications that have been made to it.


Also, people always bring up this idea that Leia "flies" in TLJ...what? No, she very obviously doesn't. She uses the Force to pull on the ship, just like Luke pulling a lightsaber to his hand (with no training in moving things with his mind) in Empire. Since she and the ship are both in 0 gravity, the force needed is incredibly small. THe Clone Wars cartoon also features a force user surviving in space for a bit, in one of the first episodes, if not the first.

IT's just wild to me how many of the endlessly repeated arguments against TLJ are easily debunked, and yet keep popping up.

 

[Shasarak]

And the other Jedi wasn't trying to kill him they were trying to turn him. Luke ran from Vader once Obi Wan was struck down, and lost in ESB.

Exactly, Luke did not even use a Lightsaber in Starwars except in practice against a drone.