Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

t is perfectly reasonable to like 3.5 or any other system, and people can do so without being jerks. The problem is that as the rules try to account for every possible scenario in order to make games more homogeneous from one table to another, they begin to select for players who approach the rules as immutable law. This type of selection favors min/maxing, rules lawyering, and a heavy meta game focus on right vs wrong ways to do things. Even this is not really a problem if that is how everyone in the group enjoys their experience, but it can create players who are ill prepared for games that do not function to such specifications. It encourages a competitive approach instead of a cooperative approach from some players.

Yes, exactly!

I started playing and GMing D&D way back in the Holmes boxed set era. There have been a lot of changes to D&D over time that go beyond simple differences between the rules in various editions.

Back when I started, the basic rules were very minimal (and sometimes contradictory), so pretty much everyone interpreted, altered, and/or added to them for their own group(s). It was highly encouraged by TSR (primarily through their Dragon magazine), though not everyone read that. It was pretty common for GMs and players to not know anything about the company, the writers, the designers, and their game philosophy. AD&D expanded the rule set quite a bit (and the number of contradictory rules and loopholes, even), but the general DIY ethic was still the predominant one.

Once you got to 3 and 3e, though, there was a shift in tone, both from the company itself and within the player base. The rules became more complex, and (in my experience) rules lawyering became a bigger issue in general. "Optimized builds" became a bigger thing, mainly because more complex systems make that more of a possibility. I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience rules lawyering became a bigger issue in most places. I started seeing more conflict between DMs and players when it came to attitudes towards RAW and RAI, too. I got the sense that Wizards of the Coast were starting to put a little more emphasis on the idea of D&D being played in a similar fashion from table to table, too. It was the introduction of league play that really cemented that idea, though.

Game design theories, meta arguments, RAW vs. RAI, character optimization, and a lot of other things changed radically when the general public moved onto the Internet en masse, in the late 90s. A lot of the rancor, heated arguments, absolutism, and other unfortunate things that are issues today were not that common in the pre-Internet era, when people had to either talk to each other or write books, columns, letters, etc. It is far more than a doubling effect - more like a 100 times (or more) plus.

This situation makes things very difficult for Wizards of the Coast. Since D&D is the most well-known and most played rpg, people tend to view it as a system that has something for everyone. It isn't a generic system, though, and a lot of people who play it remember a time when fewer people thought that the rules were cast in iron. There is often a big difference in expectations and general philosophy between people who played in the pre-3e days, those who got their start with 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder, and those who are coming into the hobby after a lifetime of playing videogames.

The designers of D&D should probably just pick a direction and go with it, since designing the most popular rpg in the world to try to suit all of those groups is very problematic. WotC is motivated the keep presenting the game in that way, though, to maximize their profits. The reluctance of many players these days to learn more than one rpg ruleset probably influences that, as well.
 

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ad_hoc

(they/them)
This situation makes things very difficult for Wizards of the Coast. Since D&D is the most well-known and most played rpg, people tend to view it as a system that has something for everyone. It isn't a generic system, though, and a lot of people who play it remember a time when fewer people thought that the rules were cast in iron. There is often a big difference in expectations and general philosophy between people who played in the pre-3e days, those who got their start with 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder, and those who are coming into the hobby after a lifetime of playing videogames.

I agree with your post, I just want to pick this bit out.

I think there are a large group of people playing 5e who are new to RPGs and haven't played many videogames.
 

I agree with your post, I just want to pick this bit out.

I think there are a large group of people playing 5e who are new to RPGs and haven't played many videogames.

You're right. They would probably constitute a fourth general group, with different expectations, if they had any at all.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I look at it this way: In the fictional six seconds represented by a round of combat, every participant has the opportunity to emit about six seconds of speech. At the table, these speeches are made in initiative order, but like the movements and actions of the participants overlap in the fiction, so do their speeches all take place at roughly the same time. The quickness of those high in the initiative order explains why their friends don’t have the opportunity to shout warnings and instructions they can benefit from before springing into action.
I allow speech as a free at-will action for short things like my earlier examples, in order to better replicate the fog of war where everyone's shouting at once. Poetry recitals and election speeches, however, are right out. :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Once you got to 3 and 3e, though, there was a shift in tone, both from the company itself and within the player base. The rules became more complex, and (in my experience) rules lawyering became a bigger issue in general. "Optimized builds" became a bigger thing, mainly because more complex systems make that more of a possibility. I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience rules lawyering became a bigger issue in most places. I started seeing more conflict between DMs and players when it came to attitudes towards RAW and RAI, too. I got the sense that Wizards of the Coast were starting to put a little more emphasis on the idea of D&D being played in a similar fashion from table to table, too. It was the introduction of league play that really cemented that idea, though.
League play, in the form of the RPGA, had already been around for ages at that point...and had already been causing the same kind of unification-vs.-table by table disputes and headaches.

What made the difference with WotC however, and what many people either forget or ignore, is that WotC was coming from designing a very successful game where there really was a rule for everything: Magic the Gathering. They then took that rule-for-everything ethos and tried to apply it to D&D, with decidedly mixed results.

Game design theories, meta arguments, RAW vs. RAI, character optimization, and a lot of other things changed radically when the general public moved onto the Internet en masse, in the late 90s. A lot of the rancor, heated arguments, absolutism, and other unfortunate things that are issues today were not that common in the pre-Internet era, when people had to either talk to each other or write books, columns, letters, etc. It is far more than a doubling effect - more like a 100 times (or more) plus.
Yeah, the internet hasn't helped any either. :)
 

Hussar

Legend
League play, in the form of the RPGA, had already been around for ages at that point...and had already been causing the same kind of unification-vs.-table by table disputes and headaches.

What made the difference with WotC however, and what many people either forget or ignore, is that WotC was coming from designing a very successful game where there really was a rule for everything: Magic the Gathering. They then took that rule-for-everything ethos and tried to apply it to D&D, with decidedly mixed results.

Yeah, the internet hasn't helped any either. :)

And, just to add to that, you have Monte Cook, who was pretty instrumental in the design of 3e, who came from designing Rolemaster and Champions. I mean, you can pretty much draw a direct line from 3e to Rolemaster. And those priorities have really influenced how we have proceeded from there.
 

League play, in the form of the RPGA, had already been around for ages at that point...and had already been causing the same kind of unification-vs.-table by table disputes and headaches.

That's true. It wasn't nearly so widespread as it is today, though. These days a lot of new players get their start that way.

What made the difference with WotC however, and what many people either forget or ignore, is that WotC was coming from designing a very successful game where there really was a rule for everything: Magic the Gathering. They then took that rule-for-everything ethos and tried to apply it to D&D, with decidedly mixed results.

That's a good point.
 

pemerton

Legend
you have Monte Cook, who was pretty instrumental in the design of 3e, who came from designing Rolemaster and Champions. I mean, you can pretty much draw a direct line from 3e to Rolemaster.
Having played a lot of Rolemaster and a bit of 3E, they're pretty different (the only real point of resemblance, I think, is the skill aspect of PC Gen; perhaps also the Fort and Will saving throw mechanics).

But anyway, RM does not have a "RAW" culture - Monte Cook came to prominence as a contributor to the RM Companions, and these are collections of optional rules that are largely unplaytested and are pretty random in their mechanical balance.

There are two main differences between 3E and RM.

(1) In PC building, 3E is list-based, with many places where choices are made from many elements, many of which provide distinct mechanical abilities, and many of which cumulate in various respects producing unanticipated and potentially broken combinations. RM doesn't have this - everything in RM is either a check or a fiat spell effect. There is very little stuff (like feats or class abilities) that just adds capabilities to a PC without mediating them through the skill or spell systems. (This makes RM closer to RQ or Classic Traveller, though not quite as austere as those systems.)

(2) RM's skill system doesn't rely as heavily as 3E's on preset DCs. It also relies more than 3E's on preset circumstance modifiers. I haven't played enough 3E to know which system is heavier in play, but the elements of their complexity are different.

Anyway, RM is not a system that is going to play the same from table to table - with different options in play (from the core books and the Companions), with different expectations from a GM about what the base DCs are for various actions, it will turn out quite different. (Obviously all will involve similar procedures - of looking up charts and rolling lots of percentile dice - but the outcomes of resolution will be different.)
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
If you wanted to and play the sort of game that goes to that extreme, sure.
I think you missed my point entirely. When the game degenerates into a situation where everyone involved has to keep checking a codebook in order to perform the simplest of tactical decisions you are no longer spending most of your time playing the game itself, but rather wasting time on something trivial and useless. And at that point it's easier for everyone to just rule that having to do that is stupid.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
This gets into fairly contentious territory - but my answer is a firm "yes", and it's probably the main reason I'm not very enthusiastic about 5e as a system.

I'll elaborate - I've got two reasons, a primary one and a secondary one.

The primary reason: in a system (like 5e or 13th Age) with strongly asymmetric suites of player resources, the balance of intra-party mechanical effectiveness can easily be broken - normally by those players with long-rest-recovery deploying them in a nova fashion, and then taking steps to recover them - which means those players with short-rest recovery or at-will resources don't get the benefit of their more rapid recovery times.

13th Age solves this problem by sheer stipulation - after 4 combats the players get the benefit of a long rest - but that feature of mechanical pacing puts pressure on the GM to shape the fiction and the in-fiction pacing in such a way that the recovery makes sense.

The standard recommended approach in 5e is for the GM to exercise very strong control over the pacing and the availability of rests, which then generates uncertainy on the parts of the players about the prospects of resource recovery, and thus reduces the tendency of players with long-rest-recovery resources to spend them profligately.

But that leads into my secondary reason: the result of resource-conservation is that, at least some of the time and perhaps quite a bit of the time, you don't get to play your PC (in the full mechanical sense of that notion). If my conception of my character is as a fireballing blaster then I want to cast fireballs, not conserve them!

(I regard classic D&D as an exception to this - in classic dungeon crawling RPGing the PC isn't really a character to be played, but a suite of resources and capabilities to be managed. Converving appropriately is part of that. But it's far from my favourite approach to RPGing - I prefer more contemporary styles where player mechanical resources are the devices whereby the character is played by engaging with the fiction and declaring actions.)

The last system I played/GMed in a serious way that had asymmetric resource suites was Rolemaster. In my first long RM campaign we solved the problem by having everyone play wizards (so while there was asymmetry in the rules, there was not very much at our table). In our second long campaign we tweaked some rules and also adopted some conventions which meant that, as a general proposition, a caster had to nova to be on a par with a non-caster - but had a degree of versatility and supernatural capability (eg non-casters can't fly or just turn invisible in the middle of a plain) which made up for this lack of sheer effectiveness.

But for the past 10 years I've only played/GMed games with symmetric resource suites, with the exception of a couple of sessions of AD&D (which fall into the paranthetical exception noted above).

Edit: Re APs - I would never recommend APs (!) and by all accounts the published ones for 5e don't do a particularly good job of managing these pacing issues.

I think not doing dungeon crawls makes the presupposed pacing of 6-8 encounters per adventuring day harder to pull off - a fairly standard solution (that many 4e tables also used) is to upscale short/long rests to 1x/day and 1x/week. (An alternative to 1x/week is you must be at a haven/safe place, but if you mostly play city or courtly adventures that mightn't help.)

The real issue is managing pacing so that nova-ing of long-rest-recovery resources doesn't become a dominant strategy.
Very informative, thanks. Food for thought.

As an aside: Engaging the fiction, for sure, and also I'd say Engage the Setting, as players, so to have "new information", about the game fiction, flowing from PCs* to the GM, not only the usual way around, from Gm to Pcs.

*PCs decisions, choises, investment of resources and creativity to alter the setting/situation, "forcing" the Gm to react to them, and enjoy the unexpected new stuff brought to the table by players.
Not an easy task, btw.
 

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