D&D 5E Why penalize returning from death?

My wife and I play AL at the local game shop, and you may be surprised to know, there are still house rules. A DM is running the game, so how could there not be house rules? Like [MENTION=6748898]ad_hoc[/MENTION] mentioned above, the way 5e was designed leaves little to no chance that ANY group playing it will not have some form of house rule, or a different way of looking at and interpreting the rules that actually ARE there for us to see in black and white in the core rulebooks.

I’m ok with slightly modifying how I play the game dependent on the group I’m playing with at the moment. I just want to spend some time having fun, and D&D is a relatively new way my wife and I have recently discovered for us to do that together. As far as I can tell, that’s the main purpose of the game. Fun.


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Lanefan said:

That's a very money-focussed view of it all, I must say. And, I must also say, very familiar: our crew usually runs it this way as well. And yes, it can lead to what amounts to a financial death spiral, particularly if a character dies and returns several times in short succession. Been there, done that.

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Well, I look at in game money as to have more options to customize your character to become more effective - in combat, in variety of spells or socially. Although I wouldn't deny returning from the dead is kind of special from a roleplaying perspective, the loss of money from death makes you less effective in all above situations. Being focused on the money is not my fault, it is the system's fault!

Lanefan said:

But: not all groups work this way. Some have it that revival funds for those who died on party business come straight out of party treasury before division; thus the party pays for the revival rather than the individual. Some other groups set up what amounts to an insurance program, where each character pays into a pooled fund ahead of time and this fund is used for revival costs. (some time ago my group tried the insurance-program idea but only about half the PCs were willing to pay in...so much for that idea)

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This is a good idea, I'll try to introduce it to my party.

Lanefan said:

I think you've missed that in 5e by RAW magic items cannot be bought at all, and there's only so much non-magic stuff you can buy that'll significantly help you in the field.

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I didn't but I mean (again from a game design perspective) why is there 79 pages of magic items if you can't get them? That would be silly.
I actually meant the costly material components for spells and the money to buy hirelings/castles whatnot.

Lanefan said:

Missing a single encounter is trivial. Missing several days or weeks of game time, particularly if those days or weeks take several real-world sessions to play out, can be a bigger deal...which is why it's always helpful to have a reserve character or three on hand.

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I wouldn't mind temporarily running another character while the main one is still on ice, but that would just add to the story.

Ad_hoc basicslky none of the points you make questioning the rpg play as is vs play with tweaks is any different from really any other era of RPG. More buyers, less buyers etc does not change the naturevof the beast. 5e is not the first majot hit rpg to ehphasize rulings over rules, reason over restriction or whatever the buzz words de jour today are.

Competitive war games (and shared play) have different demands and constrictions that five friends each werk in an ogoing evolving game dont and that has not changed just because its a 5 and not a 3.5 or a WotC vs WoD label on the front ot the art is more Frazetta than Gaiman.

But, it boils down to this is jyst vieepoints and perceptions, not any sort of fact we have the ability practically confirm to a statistically relevant degree of confidence.

Am i sure... Yup because alk my experience thru the ongoing evolution of rogs has shown me this is the case over and over and nothing about the current statis quo is really so uniquely different that it would change that.

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Honestly I would support this, But the issue I have is that level 3 Revivify (Basically a combat Resurrection where a healer pops this then either the PC drops their self heal, or a potion, or next round healer uses a big heal and the character is back in the fight) has no penalty, and is 2 levels lower. Then one level lower is Reincarnate, which has the minor drawback of Possibly giving you a less than optimal race, This can be undone a couple ways, but is pretty much an ignore death mechanic on all but possibly the worst one or 2 races. Raise Dead takes a short rest to cast, And has the same limitations of Revivify otherwise as far as missing limbs body parts or other maladies. But it takes the party out of commission for 97 hours, as you huddle in your resting spell. (Again Leomunds hut Mords Mansion all basically allow the bypass of the penalty relatively easily) Like I said I want to like the penalty, I really do, but it feels like it is an arbitrary remnant of editions past much like the ghost's aging powers or in a lot of cases resistances. (Face it blaster spells are kind of a waste and Spell resistance covers what damage resistance is doing anyway.) I think I would be fine if they allowed Greater restoration to remove the debuff (Basically saying you have to burn 2 5th level spells for walking in to something unprepared) or by nerfing Revivify to also impose the same penalty.

Looking at the anatomy of the spells themselves all return spells have high price tags as far as gold goes, and in 5E death is already cheap because of the bringing up a player from unconscious works. The real threat is the whole party dropping to dying, which happens most often due to AoE or hordes of foes. Added to this is that the average party size anticipated is 4-5 and any character going to deaths door really hampers the party's capability. Yes there is healing word, but a savvy GM with intelligent creatures will just pop the freshly healed PC again and knock them back down and if they really want have any other attackers on the downed character just stick them as well for good measure, causing them to quickly wrack up 3 death failures possibly before they even get to roll. So if Healing word is the problem then you are running your monsters in possibly a too forgiving way, which is fine for level 1-5 but beyond that, it is time to lose the kids gloves and let the PCs know that there is danger out there.

Basically I really think that there should be something to Raise, but it is hard to justify when only extremely niche cases actually require it's use (Not finishing an encounter fast enough, or at least not dragging the fallen off the field fast enough, Not having the correct spell to remove the specific debuff applied, etc), or it is fully outclassed by a lower level spell (Revivify). I also think that mechanics should not be needed to make death feel threatening, but players should be role playing that their characters have a sense of self preservation and are legitimately afraid of death on it's own merits, as technically as with all divine magic, a god at any time may choose not to grant the blessing on a specific character, for what ever reason (I usually save this illustration for NPCs and the god saying basically not my faith not my problem I will help your companions because they are nominally doing my work) instills a facet of faith that makes these mechanics not feel like a guaranteed thing.

Last is the fact that often character death is no fault of the PCs and simply a couple of lucky or crappy dice rolls, The rogue getting critted by a shadow or 2 is a good example. While this is part of the game, there needs to be error correction for this which is what the raise mechanics are there for. I as a GM feel totally justified in saying no to a raise/revivify/resurrection attempt to a PC who willingly jumps off a cliff.

Another Necro-thread! @1720x is a powerful necromancer!

Ymdar said:

This could be a general question as well but let's go with 5e because it is the newest and most modern version of D&D.
So why penalize returning from death from a game design perspective? It used to be poorly defined 'loss of level' in previous editions, now it is only the gold cost.

In most games I've played (maybe it is a regional thing) if your character died and there was no option to somehow return them to life you just created a new character who would be at the same level as the others and would gain the appropriate starting money based on the wealth by level tables. So if you died there were two options:

• Raise you character from the dead: Lose a lot of gold (and perhaps levels) thus be weaker than other characters, be grateful to a random cleric (or your party's cleric) and even have an obligation to that cleric to go on a random adventure which may or may not distract the campaign. Additionally you might need to roll up another character anyway for the duration of obtaining a sufficiently expensive gem for the spell.
• Roll a new character: Who could have exactly the same stats, abilities, items and personality as your previous one with a different name, no questions asked.

So my question is: Why is the hassle needed to return from the dead? By dying you potentially lose a lot of game time spent building up that character also adventure hooks etc. It would be much more fun not penalizing character death to this extent.

Obviously I understand that sometimes you want to end playing with your character and move on in which case this rant is pointless because if the player wants their character die they don't have to continue playing with him/her.

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There are a lot of ways to do it, but if there's no pain that goes with death then there's no reason to be worried about it & act accordingly.

HarbingerX said:

Another Necro-thread! @1720x is a powerful necromancer!

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Actually, given my thread on Super Deadly 5E, reading this might be useful...

In fiction and myth returning from death is empowering (often involves fighting your way out and or epiphanies that mark another strong transition. Like Gandalf becoming the White).

Ymdar said:

This could be a general question as well but let's go with 5e because it is the newest and most modern version of D&D.
So why penalize returning from death from a game design perspective? It used to be poorly defined 'loss of level' in previous editions, now it is only the gold cost.

In most games I've played (maybe it is a regional thing) if your character died and there was no option to somehow return them to life you just created a new character who would be at the same level as the others and would gain the appropriate starting money based on the wealth by level tables. So if you died there were two options:

• Raise you character from the dead: Lose a lot of gold (and perhaps levels) thus be weaker than other characters, be grateful to a random cleric (or your party's cleric) and even have an obligation to that cleric to go on a random adventure which may or may not distract the campaign. Additionally you might need to roll up another character anyway for the duration of obtaining a sufficiently expensive gem for the spell.
• Roll a new character: Who could have exactly the same stats, abilities, items and personality as your previous one with a different name, no questions asked.

So my question is: Why is the hassle needed to return from the dead? By dying you potentially lose a lot of game time spent building up that character also adventure hooks etc. It would be much more fun not penalizing character death to this extent.

Obviously I understand that sometimes you want to end playing with your character and move on in which case this rant is pointless because if the player wants their character die they don't have to continue playing with him/her.

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TBH in my games, IF raising is an option (It might be not for several reasons) there will be at least a material cost involved. Since I use a developed economy, means in game silver (aka gold since I use the realistic silver standard) can buy you things like weapons, armor, healing pots, mage spell scrolls, vehicles, ships war machines, a qualified crafter which can add that gleaming gem you found to your magical sword etc.

In the campaign I run atm. the price for a resurrection is 5000 silver. For that money you can buy one of these positions:

100 healing pots 2d4+2
10 healing pots 3d8+8 (Requires you to be follower of a temple who might offer them in low quantities)
50 Two handed swords
10 suits of chain
6,25 suits of full plate (houseruled for AC 19)
50 Level 1 mage scrolls
1 Level 7 mage scrolls (with 100s change)
A state chariot
25 sextants
10 looking glasses
A ballista doing 4d10 with a reach of 600/1500 1 bolt / 2rd

Of course a res might be free for a devout follower of a faith, or it requires some sort of service for a church.