D&D 5E Assassinate

epithet · Aug 15, 2015

Paraxis said:
Except you can't ready actions outside of initiative either.

Sure you can.

MG.0 · Aug 15, 2015

epithet said:
The bottom line is that the assassin, if he gets surprise, should get a guaranteed crit if his attack hits. Otherwise, you're screwing the assassin big-time. The assassinate feature doesn't say "if you win initiative," and it is a profoundly lame ruling to declare that the signature feature of the assassin is dependent on the initiative roll.

But the assassinate ability most definitely does already depend on initiative:

You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet.
In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

If you assume surprised creatures actually take a turn during the first round:

If you rule surprise lasts until the target's first turn ends, then the assassin gets advantage and auto-crit if he beats the target on initiative or attacks normally if he doesn't.

If you rule surprise lasts until the first round ends, then the assassin gets advantage and auto-crit if he beats the target on initiative or has no advantage yet still auto-crits if he doesn't.

If you think surprised creatures don't take a turn during the first round:

If you rule surprise lasts until the target's first turn ends, then the assassin gets advantage and auto-crit on the first round, and gets advantage and auto-crit in the second round if he beats the target on initiative or attacks normally if he doesn't.

If you rule surprise lasts until the first round ends, then the assassin gets advantage and auto-crit on the first round, and gets advantage only in the second round if he beats the target on initiative or attacks normally if he doesn't.

Of all of these, the first seems the simplest, most straightforward implementation. The second seems awkward and I don't like the look of the third or fourth ones at all.

Paraxis · Aug 15, 2015

epithet said:
Sure you can.

If you are not in initiative then you don't have "turns".

Ready says this, "Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn."

So if you are not in turn by turn initiative you can't take the ready action.

Hriston · Aug 15, 2015

Hriston said:
... Then you'll see that it is not the round that makes you surprised, it is only being unable to move and take actions until the end of your turn.

Majoru Oakheart said:
Nothing says that, however.

I was just riffing off [MENTION=28334]Lidgar[/MENTION]'s reference to the Spoon Boy scene from The Matrix. Obviously, as it say in the rules, it is being unaware of the presence of your opponents at the start of combat that makes you surprised.

Hriston · Aug 15, 2015

Ristamar said:
Let's say you have an assassin in a tall building. He's well hidden and aiming to take out a guard. He states that he is going to attack the guard with his longbow.

By the rules, combat starts.

The guard wins initiative. The assassin decides to hold his attack. He waits a few moments for "combat" to end, then declares another attack... rinse and repeat until the assassin wins initiative, or someone spots him in the building.

Sure, you could say the assassin has to attack the guard, yet that hardly seems fair. Even the optional speed factor initiative rules which require a preemptive declaration of action allow the player to not take the action.

You could also say the failure to win initiative means the guard spotted him or is suddenly suspicious of his general surroundings, but that severely devalues the assassin's Stealth skill.

I agree with others that the Assassin's player should go ahead and make the attack anyway since that's what was declared and is the reason initiative was rolled. But I also agree that the rules allow players to change their minds about what they do on their turn, or at least with Speed Factor to opt out of following through on declared actions, so the player is well within her rights to do so. If the player decides to resume the attack, however, hoping for another chance to win the initiative roll, there is nothing to stop the DM from using the values from the previous roll. That initiative order was never used after all.

That's what I'd do, anyways.

I suppose it depends on what the initiative roll represents to you in the fiction. Is it a reaction to an immediate stimulus, like combat beginning? In that case I'd assume that as combat enters later rounds differences in reaction time would tend to even out, with that initial roll having less of an impact.

Or maybe it's a race to see who gets to go first, but then why isn't there a similar race every round? If you do speed factor I suppose this could be the narrative.

The way I see it, initiative is a measure of your reaction time that is in effect for the duration. In that way it's a lot like a passive score, and you could use a passive initiative score like the DMG suggests as a variant. For me that wouldn't be as much fun as rolling because then everyone always has the same initiative, but the concept is the same. You measure "initiative" at the beginning of combat to see how a creature's reaction time compares to other participants at that time. If the assassin decides to delay the attack, only to try again in a moment, what has changed in the situation to justify a new initiative roll?

Celtavian · Aug 15, 2015

Who knew this would become such a complicated topic.

Hriston · Aug 15, 2015

Ristamar said:
Andrew the assassin, Biff the battle master, and Cory the (war) cleric are hiding out in the third story of an abandoned building in a large town. The setting sun can be seen through an open window, but there is still some hustle and bustle below in the streets.

Andrew spots the telltale markings of a town guard a few hundred yards down the road. The armor, the cloak, the standard issue halberd... even from this distance and at this time of day, he can spot one of the local authority. He recalls being thrown in prison last year in this same town for pickpocketing. Being a guy that holds a grudge against the establishment, Andrew decides that he's going to put his Sharpshooting assassin skills to use and put in arrow of the back of the guard.

Andrew draws his longbow. The group's earlier stealth check far exceeds the guards passive Perception score. Andrew's lips twitch with a wicked grin as he prepares to fire...

<CUE INITIATIVE>

Andrew: 12

Biff: 19

Cory: 16

Guard: 6

<ROUND 1>
Biff acts first but simply watches Andrew in anticipation. He, too, had a run in with the law here, so he has no qualms with a little revenge.

...but Cory, who acts next, decides that he isn't comfortable with this cold blooded assault! Cory casts Hold Person on Andrew, and Andrew fails his save.

Andrew stands as still as a statue, incapacitated by the spell. He rolls a saving throw, but fails again.

The unwitting guard continues to stroll down the road away from his would be assailants. He's enjoying the sunset as his watch is coming to an end. Also, he's apparently no longer surprised, but he's not sure what that means.

<ROUND 2>
Biff is having none of Cory's sudden moment of good conscience. He punches Cory dead in the face. While it doesn't do much damage, the blow does break Cory's concentration on the spell.

Cory madly lunges at Biff, forgetting about the guard, and grapples him.

Andrew snorts derisively as he realizes he's free of the spell, and then takes his shot at the guard... a hit! But wait, no 'Assassinate' damage for Andrew because the guard has already taken his turn in the initiative order! Sorry, Andrew, try to be quicker next time, or bring some friends with looser morals!

The guard abruptly stumbles forward as an arrow suddenly strikes him in the back. The shot nearly killed him, yet as he grimaces from the pain, he can't shake this strange feeling that he was incredibly fortunate... if he can just make it out of the streets before the unseen assailant(s) can loose another arrow.

From the Player's Basic Rules (emphasis added):

You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.

As a spell with a verbal component, casting Hold Person would give the group's location away to the guard. The guard, hearing the casting, while not necessarily knowing it is a spell, would become aware of the presence of someone in the abandoned building and would naturally glance up at the open windows, seeing the frozen figure of Andrew aiming an arrow at him. He is still surprised on his first turn, however, because he was unaware of his attacker when combat began. Before Andrew is able to shoot in the second round, however, the guard is no longer surprised and is in fact fully aware he is being attacked.

This doesn't change the outcome of what you've narrated above, but I think it makes it sound a bit more reasonable.

EzekielRaiden · Aug 15, 2015

Celtavian said:
Who knew this would become such a complicated topic.

It's a rules discussion. No game, not even 5e (despite the frequent claims to the contrary) is immune to exacting debate on the part of enthusiasts.

GMforPowergamers · Aug 15, 2015

EzekielRaiden said:
It's a rules discussion. No game, not even 5e (despite the frequent claims to the contrary) is immune to exacting debate on the part of enthusiasts.

I read a quote once that said something to the effect of: For the rules to be written in such a way that they would cover everything in clear ways that didn't require interpretation they would be larger then the encyclopedia Britannica, and cost as much as a Ferrari...

the big problem lies when people jump form "Hey this is how we do it" to "The rules say I'm right and your wrong" when we clearly are all reading the same rules and getting different results.

epithet · Aug 15, 2015

Paraxis said:
If you are not in initiative then you don't have "turns".

Ready says this, "Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn."

So if you are not in turn by turn initiative you can't take the ready action.

Nothing in that quote says that's the only way to have an action readied. If the Barbarian goes to kick the door down and the Rogue has an arrow drawn to shoot anything hostile that comes out of it, and there's nothing but dust and cobwebs on the other side of the door, you don't need to roll initiative and there's no combat going on. The rogue still has an action readied, though.

The most important thing in the game is the narrative. The rules serve the narrative, not the other way around.