Lidgar
Gongfarmer
Just as there is no spoon.
D&D 5E Assassinate
Just as there is no spoon.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
... Then you'll see that it is not the round that makes you surprised, it is only being unable to move and take actions until the end of your turn.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
Nothing says that, however. It says that creatures who are surprised cannot move or act in the first round of combat and cannot take reactions until after their first turn. It never actually says when the "surprised" status ends.
There's certainly an implication that surprise goes away at the end of your first turn. Though I really don't like the "feel" of that. It means that you can be surprised, roll the highest initiative and then all the enemies who surprised you can't trigger their abilities that require you to be surprised.
I hadn't read the text too closely and had been playing that everyone who is "surprised" keeps that status until the end of the first round. I think that works the best in terms of the "feel" of assassinate.
Nothing directly says it in the text, but it is easily inferred. By the rules, if you can take a reaction, you aren't surprised.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
Yeah, I stated that it's implied, for sure. But then again, I really don't like the idea that a Rogue can get the drop on you, you didn't see them coming and yet by the time the Rogue actually fires at you, you aren't surprised anymore. The roleplaying and logical implications of that don't sit well with me. There isn't a good in-game rationale for it. Especially when you are being attacked by one Rogue, they are hidden and you have absolutely no idea they are going to attack. The fact that you went first in initiative doesn't represent anything of note and certainly doesn't make sense in game that it should remove surprise.
I had always played it as you say: Surprise lasts until the end of the first round. It seemed logical and in line with how surprise worked in 1st and 2nd editions, so I hadn't considered it could work any other way. The funny thing is after reading this thread I can appreciate ending surprise after the surprised creature's first turn. I kind of like the idea of an assassin's blade being turned by a wizard's quick cast of shield, even though he was momentarily caught off guard (In game terms: A reaction after the surprised wizard's turn because he beat the assassin on inititative). I think it adds interesting narrative possibilities even though it does slightly weaken assassins.
Fair enough, though I feel that's more of an issue with when to determine initiative than the mechanics and restrictions of surprise. The text surrounding what dictates the beginning of combat is extremely vague, so I don't have a problem with an opening attack immediately preceding initiative in certain circumstances.
Quite frankly, I'm glad there aren't any hard rules regarding how and when to open combat. D&D's microcosm of combat is good as an abstracted turn-based resolution system for small skirmishes, but it's ill suited for handling much else (mass combat, evasion & pursuit, general exploration, social interactions, etc).
Quite frankly, I'm glad there aren't any hard rules regarding how and when to open combat. D&D's microcosm of combat is good as an abstracted turn-based resolution system for small skirmishes, but it's ill suited for handling much else (mass combat, evasion & pursuit, general exploration, social interactions, etc).
How can you read the order of combat section and think what dictates the beginning of combat to be vague at all?
Step 1. Determine Surprise, if there was going to be an opening attack of some sort wouldn't that fall under 'surprise'?
Step 2, Establish Position, how could there be an opening attack if the DM hasn't done this yet?
Step 3, Roll Initiative, everyone involved rolls for initiative determining order, this is clearly what determines order of actions.
Step 4, Take Turns, this is the 4th step you can't take a turn until this point, which is clearly after the other 3 including rolling for initiative.
Step 5, Repeat step 4 until fight is over.
What is vague about any of that?
What if the opening move of combat isn't an attack? Is the unsuspecting party no longer surprised simply because initiative was rolled, even though he has no idea there is a threat nearby?
And when does combat end by those rules? If a goblin dashes into forest woods in an effort to escape from the party after his pals are slaughtered and the PCs pursue, is the fight over? Do I have to use square by square, round by round movement with strict combat mechanics until the goblin is captured or killed?
If the PC's decide to flee while in the midst of their enemies, do they have to stay within the combat rules even though that's typically a lost cause (see Nowhere to Run To, Nowhere to Hide)?
If there isn't an attack why was initiative asked for? If initiative is called for yes the unsuspecting party is no longer surprised after their first turn, those are the rules. This scenario seems to be a failing of the DM not the system.
Combat ends when the fighting stops. "Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops."
As a DM it is your call as to when that happens, you might start a chase scene, you might keep turn by turn initiative going, you might resolve it with a single skill check, or hand wave the escape, whatever works best for your game.
But this is talking about how the end of combat is vague, and that is not what was is debate here, you talked about how the start of combat was vague.
This should be handled just like the DM decides to handle these situations for NPC's, as above it can be handled in a variety of ways, but this has nothing to do with "The text surrounding what dictates the beginning of combat is extremely vague", the opening of combat is not vague at all, when it ends is a little vague but the guideline is "when the fighting stops".
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