D&D 5E Assassinate

[Ristamar]

Let's say you have an assassin in a tall building. He's well hidden and aiming to take out a guard. He states that he is going to attack the guard with his longbow.

By the rules, combat starts.

The guard wins initiative. The assassin decides to hold his attack. He waits a few moments for "combat" to end, then declares another attack... rinse and repeat until the assassin wins initiative, or someone spots him in the building.

Sure, you could say the assassin has to attack the guard, yet that hardly seems fair. Even the optional speed factor initiative rules which require a preemptive declaration of action allow the player to not take the action.

You could also say the failure to win initiative means the guard spotted him or is suddenly suspicious of his general surroundings, but that severely devalues the assassin's Stealth skill.

 

[Paraxis]

Let's say you have an assassin in a tall building. He's well hidden and aiming to take out a guard. He states that he is going to attack the guard with his longbow.

By the rules, combat starts.

The guard wins initiative. The assassin decides to hold his attack. He waits a few moments for "combat" to end, then declares another attack... rinse and repeat until the assassin wins initiative, or someone spots him in the building.

Sure, you could say the assassin has to attack the guard, yet that hardly seems fair. Even the optional speed factor initiative rules which require a preemptive declaration of action allow the player to not take the action.

You could also say the failure to win initiative means the guard spotted him or is suddenly suspicious of his general surroundings, but that severely devalues the assassin's Stealth skill.

Tell your assassin player to stop metagaming.

How does his character know who has won initiative?

 

[MG.0]

What if the opening move of combat isn't an attack? Is the unsuspecting party no longer surprised simply because initiative was rolled, even though he has no idea there is a threat nearby?

Here's one way to play it:

Let's say two beings (A1 and A2) come around a corner and find themselves face to face with a couple potentially hostile beings (B1 and B2). I'm purposefully not designating who is a charcter and who isn't as I believe it makes no difference.

Determine surprise:

Outcome 1 - Everyone surprised. Nothing happens for a brief moment while everyone stares. Surprise ends. Go to outcome 2.

Outcome 2 - Nobody is surprised. If anyone wants to attack, roll initiative, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Outcome 3 - Some of each side surprised. A1, B1 surprised, A2, B2 not. If anyone (even surprised beings) wants to attack, roll initiative and combat begins with surpise still in effect, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Outcome 4 - All of one side surprised. A1, A2 surprised, B1, B2 not. If anyone (even surprised beings) wants to attack, roll initiative and combat begins with surpise still in effect, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Parleying or fleeing are done in initiative order if in combat, otherwise as player's decide.

We still roll initiative if only the surprised party wants to attack because if the parties are close enough and the unsurprised one moves or flees, the surprised ones may be granted an attack of opportunity as a reaction, depending on initiative order.

 

[Ristamar]

Tell your assassin player to stop metagaming.

How does his character know who has won initiative?

How does the guard know he's in "combat?"

 

[Paraxis]

How does the guard know he's in "combat?"

He doesn't yet that is why there is 'surprise'.

He will know once the assassin attacks, which the assassin should do since declaring that intent is what started initiative in the first place.

 

[Ristamar]

Here's one way to play it:

Let's say two beings (A1 and A2) come around a corner and find themselves face to face with a couple potentially hostile beings (B1 and B2). I'm purposefully not designating who is a charcter and who isn't as I believe it makes no difference.

Determine surprise:

Outcome 1 - Everyone surprised. Nothing happens for a brief moment while everyone stares. Surprise ends. Go to outcome 2.

Outcome 2 - Nobody is surprised. If anyone wants to attack, roll initiative, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Outcome 3 - Some of each side surprised. A1, B1 surprised, A2, B2 not. If anyone (even surprised beings) wants to attack, roll initiative and combat begins with surpise still in effect, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Outcome 4 - All of one side surprised. A1, A2 surprised, B1, B2 not. If anyone (even surprised beings) wants to attack, roll initiative and combat begins with surpise still in effect, otherwise roleplay (Combat may begin later because someone is insulted, etc.).

Parleying or fleeing are done in initiative order if in combat, otherwise as player's decide.

We still roll initiative if only the surprised party wants to attack because if the parties are close enough and the unsurprised one moves or flees, the surprised ones may be granted an attack of opportunity as a reaction, depending on initiative order.

I'm actually not opposed to the surprise rules as they are written, especially as they pertain to a scenario where two groups unexpectedly bump into each other. I think they work in most cases.

My contention is with when I have to call for initiative to start combat in certain instances like the one I outlined above. Personally, I'd just let that assassin take the shot with surprise.

The transition from "combat" to "out of combat" can be nebulous, IMO, and certain scenarios just don't fit neatly into D&D's system. Even when they do fit into the system, they can lead to some odd results if you run them strictly by the book. Take a look at the scenario below...

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Andrew the assassin, Biff the battle master, and Cory the (war) cleric are hiding out in the third story of an abandoned building in a large town. The setting sun can be seen through an open window, but there is still some hustle and bustle below in the streets.

Andrew spots the telltale markings of a town guard a few hundred yards down the road. The armor, the cloak, the standard issue halberd... even from this distance and at this time of day, he can spot one of the local authority. He recalls being thrown in prison last year in this same town for pickpocketing. Being a guy that holds a grudge against the establishment, Andrew decides that he's going to put his Sharpshooting assassin skills to use and put in arrow of the back of the guard.

Andrew draws his longbow. The group's earlier stealth check far exceeds the guards passive Perception score. Andrew's lips twitch with a wicked grin as he prepares to fire...

<CUE INITIATIVE>

• Andrew: 12
• Biff: 19
• Cory: 16
• Guard: 6

<ROUND 1>
Biff acts first but simply watches Andrew in anticipation. He, too, had a run in with the law here, so he has no qualms with a little revenge.

...but Cory, who acts next, decides that he isn't comfortable with this cold blooded assault! Cory casts Hold Person on Andrew, and Andrew fails his save.

Andrew stands as still as a statue, incapacitated by the spell. He rolls a saving throw, but fails again.

The unwitting guard continues to stroll down the road away from his would be assailants. He's enjoying the sunset as his watch is coming to an end. Also, he's apparently no longer surprised, but he's not sure what that means.

<ROUND 2>
Biff is having none of Cory's sudden moment of good conscience. He punches Cory dead in the face. While it doesn't do much damage, the blow does break Cory's concentration on the spell.

Cory madly lunges at Biff, forgetting about the guard, and grapples him.

Andrew snorts derisively as he realizes he's free of the spell, and then takes his shot at the guard... a hit! But wait, no 'Assassinate' damage for Andrew because the guard has already taken his turn in the initiative order! Sorry, Andrew, try to be quicker next time, or bring some friends with looser morals!

The guard abruptly stumbles forward as an arrow suddenly strikes him in the back. The shot nearly killed him, yet as he grimaces from the pain, he can't shake this strange feeling that he was incredibly fortunate... if he can just make it out of the streets before the unseen assailant(s) can loose another arrow.

 

[MG.0]

The guard wins initiative. The assassin decides to hold his attack.

I don't tell players enemy initiatives until needed. The assassin would declare his attack and roll initiative. I roll secretly for the guard. The guard wins and takes no action on his turn but I don't say anything to indicate the guard has taken a turn yet. The assassin then attacks.

If you have an aversion to rolling secretly, then in a roleplaying sense I think the declaration that he was going to attack is enough to give away his presence, even if he subsequently changes his mind. He drew the bow, and catches the guard's eye, surprising the guard, but the guard can still react (not act) quickly, perhaps shouting for help.

 

[Ristamar]

I don't tell players enemy initiatives until needed. The assassin would declare his attack and roll initiative. I roll secretly for the guard. The guard wins and takes no action on his turn but I don't say anything to indicate the guard has taken a turn yet. The assassin then attacks.

If the assassin rolls low but doesn't know the guard's roll, he could still hold, wait, and reset.

If you have an aversion to rolling secretly, then in a roleplaying sense I think the declaration that he was going to attack is enough to give away his presence, even if he subsequently changes his mind. He drew the bow, and catches the guard's eye, surprising the guard, but the guard can still react (not act) quickly, perhaps shouting for help.

Yes, it could be run that way, but again, it devalues the Stealth skill.

FWIW, I don't discourage metagaming. As a DM, I find it easier to live with a bit of metagaming through common sense and compromise than scream about it when trying to strictly adhere to clunky rules in an abstract system. If a player can successfully overcome a challenge or encounter through metagaming, then I haven't done my job.

 

[MG.0]

If the assassin rolls low but doesn't know the guard's roll, he could still hold, wait, and reset.

...

Yes, it could be run that way, but again, it devalues the Stealth skill.

I think a lone charcter declaring an attack to initiate combat and then taking it back as a way of avoiding an initiative roll he doesn't like is an abuse. I would simply not allow it. You declared it, you did it. That devalues nothing except bad game behavior.


I like your asassin example. It stetches the concept of who is in combat. I would probably do this:

<CUE INITIATIVE>

Andrew: 12
Biff: 19
Cory: 16
Guard: 6



<ROUND 1>
Biff acts first but simply watches Andrew in anticipation. He, too, had a run in with the law here, so he has no qualms with a little revenge.

...but Cory, who acts next, decides that he isn't comfortable with this cold blooded assault! Cory casts Hold Person on Andrew, and Andrew fails his save.

Andrew stands as still as a statue, incapacitated by the spell. He rolls a saving throw, but fails again.

The guard who would've been surprised if Andrew's attack had gone unchallenged may or may not be in combat. Each non-stealthy action the party takes not attacking the guard probably requires them to make a new stealth roll at disadvantage to not be noticed by him. If they fail, the guard notices them. If he notices them he is in combat and he remains surprised at the spectacle until the end of his turn, giving Andrew a fair chance to get a shot off if he had only made his saving throw. If the party makes their stealth checks despite the in-fighting, the guard continues to be oblivious and Andrew can indeed try to assassinate him again later.

<ROUND 2>
Biff is having none of Cory's sudden moment of good conscience. He punches Cory dead in the face. While it doesn't do much damage, the blow does break Cory's concentration on the spell.

Cory madly lunges at Biff, forgetting about the guard, and grapples him.

Andrew snorts derisively as he realizes he's free of the spell, and then takes his shot at the guard...

a hit! If the guard failed to notice the party fighting, the assassinate ability kicks in as this is the first round of combat FROM THE GUARD'S PERSPECTIVE. If the guard had seen the party fighting, he is no longer surprised and takes normal attack damge.

 

[Ristamar]

I think a lone charcter declaring an attack to initiate combat and then taking it back as a way of avoiding an initiative roll he doesn't like is an abuse. I would simply not allow it. You declared it, you did it. That devalues nothing except bad game behavior.

It might be bad behavior but it's also a clumsy rule.

As far as the Stealth skill goes, it does devalue it. I think [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] was also arguing along the same lines earlier. You can have a stellar Stealth modifier, but it's going to be hampered by your initiative roll which is far less malleable in terms of bonuses. Even if you have a good initiative modifier, that's two checks you have to succeed at in order to use the Assassinate ability.

In terms of sudden face-to-face encounters or other surprise situations where the victim can see the assailant briefly before the attack is made, I do think the initiative rule makes some sense. In that moment, both sides are cognizant of each other, even if one was caught with its proverbial pants down. The assailant may gain immediate surprise, but he could be a little slow to act to take full advantage. But in edge cases where the assailant has plenty of time, is undetectable, and the victim is totally unaware, the need for an opposed initiative roll doesn't make any sense.

Initiative, IMO, is like any other skill/ability check. If there is no reason to assume the attempt would fail, then why roll?