D&D 5E Eberron popularity in 5E

Remathilis

Legend
As settings go, Eberron is trickier than most. The big catch is that all its fans already have the books. And since the setting has explicitly not changed due to the adventures or novels 100% of past lore is still usable so there's less incentive to buy a new book. Even Eberron fans are not a guaranteed sale for a product.

There is some crunch to be updated, but that could all fit into a book the size of the Elemental Evil Players Companion. Anything more is literal filler; more content for the sake of content. But something that size doesn't fit well in stores since there's no spine to make visible on shelves. And they can do stuff like the UA articles. Or let the fans use Keith Baker's updates.
(The lack of updates on Unearthed Arcana content is annoying, but I'm not sure of an easy way to update without losing an article for the month. And I'd like to see the Basttlesystem rules updated first.)

Really, not every Eberron campaign even uses those races or makes use of PCs as members of dragonmark houses. You could play a lot of games with the PHB.
First off, you're assuming that every potential Eberron fan was bought the books during 3e or 4e and no new players (or perhaps people who no longer have access to said books) will appear. It also assumes that nothing of the setting needs updating but crunch; which is also false as despite there bring no advancement to the timeline or novels, there were major differences in the 3e and 4e versions of the setting. (Especially regarding the planes, new 4e races, and dragonmarked races) or that material from the various source books won't be incorporated. Lastly, the guide might want to discuss how Eberron's assumptions interact with the new core game, as the Eberron written in 3e assumed 3e treasure and magic items, for example. A new guide won't just reprint the ECS text, but update, clarify, and expand in areas.

As to the second, an Eberron game without the unique elements misses the point. You miss out on the politics of the houses, the mystique of the warforged finding his place post-War, or the magi-tech tinkerer versatility of the artificer. It's not just PCs either; there are dragonshards, unique foes like dolgrims and dolgaunts, the quori, and such to discuss.

Right now, Eberron is a half-finished shell that can only look like Eberron if you run a FR game while squinting and changing proper nouns. I hope for more, but if WotC isn't willing or able to do Eberron right, then don't bother to do it at all. Half measures like the SCAG conversion blurb doesn't make the setting viable.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

delericho

Legend
I'm a big fan of Eberron, but I really like 5E.

I'm three sessions into a 5e Eberron campaign.

I suspect Eberron's popularity is hindered by the fact that some of the most iconic features of Eberron aren't currently possible in 5E.

Some of the iconic mechanical elements of Eberron:
  • Warforged, kalashtar, shifters, or changelings as PC races;
  • An artificer class with artificer magic;
  • Psionics;
  • Dragonmarks;
  • Action points.

You're probably right that a lack of support doesn't help, but most of the things you mention are supported, albeit through UA. And while you may find them lacklustre (and I would concur, especially WRT the Artificer), they can't really be described as not being possible.

So, to reiterate: Eberron is apparently not very popular in 5E. Is that surprising given that most of Eberron's coolest features don't exist in 5E yet?

No, not really. But it also looks like Eberron wasn't very popular in 4e either, even after it did have support of those things. Even in 3e, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that it had a peak shortly after release, but then gradually dropped back to be little more popular than any other non-FR setting.

Basically, it appears to be a niche interest.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
There were some good things about Eberron and some bad things. It is a setting that I feel had a lot of brilliant potential, but also some remarkably bad design decisions.

The Good
* The level of technology was superior to most settings, but not sci-fi/fantasy-level like Planescape or Spelljammer, but more like a fantastical version of late 1800s to early 1900s steampunk style.
* Vast cities with production bases and towering buildings to use as locations.
* Potential for a highly political bent to the adventures, far more so than other settings as everyone has various connections and everyone is vying for power rather than really clear ruling dynasties.
* Proper implementation of goblinoids, lizardfolk, orcs, rakasha, and sahuagin in a way most settings have utterly failed to do. Instead of simply tacking them on as "this is a form a 'monster' can take and who cares why they look this way or why they are here", there was thought put into implementing them in the world.

All of these allow for adventures that couldn't be done in other settings.

The Bad
* Tearing all horror elements out of vampires, werewolves, golems, dopplegangers and so on, reducing them to just supped up normal peoples and offering lesser versions of them all as typical PC races that everyone would see regularly wandering the streets. When "half-werewolf" is just the most common of all sorts of people you could run into, no longer can you sell the Werewolf off as a berserking rage-filled beast that is likely to harm anyone near it, including loved ones, and spread its disease and madness unchecked without you much having any power to stop it-- only able to make gut-wrenching decisions about how to stop the disease from spreading. Nor can golems be a demonstration of hubris coming back to punish the creator and all who might inadvertently have committed no crime but to be between the creation and the one who put it into motion. The fact that horror is basically
* Giving magical mutant superpowers to all members of the PHB races and only members of the PHB races. Although certainly some drama could ensue over the politics of whom people are allowed to marry or breed with to keep control of the marks "in the family", since that is an angle no one was willing to pursue it was a bad idea to introduce the concept as something reliable and predictable with only the "special" races having them and being able to be so certain about which marks would ever show up on which races. It would have been better if not only the PCs could have had them, but it was entirely possible for an Orc to be born that had a mark allowing her to create and spread fire and use that ability to rally an army of savages and slaves behind her or a lowly Kobold who was born with a mark that allowed him to charm people and abuses it to create a shadowy underground crime organization while becoming a hidden puppetmaster whose identity can only be grasped at. Limiting the dragonmarks to only PHB races and being prescriptive about who can have what really undermines creating mysterious or dangerous adversaries.
* Setting the nations too far apart and making them too monocultural. By the book, it is sort of lunacy that the typical adventuring party would even come together. Each and every nation has their proscribed people with clear borders between everything. This makes it so that all the conflict can really only happen at the borders. It is far better to be working with multicultural layered cities within whom power can shift between one people to another almost overnight. It would bring the conflict and adventure more to the unique features of the setting and set things up so that the PCs' actions could have great rippling effects without them even necessarily intending to, much less requiring them to overthrow whole nations to make any mark.
* Trying to stuff everything from every setting that ever existed into the setting. While some elements were put in there with care, a lot wasn't. I think the height of this is the idea of a "nation of monsters" as in every imaginable thing that doesn't get along with humans and lies outside the well defined space can apparently peacefully cohabitate in the same place. It is just an utterly bad concept. This also carries through to a major diffusion of Eberron unique core elements that I complimented it on. I have played two Eberron games-- an RTS one and an MMORPG one... and neither of them demonstrated the kind of semi-modern tech nor political structures nor sprawling cities... the first was just three factions on a deserted continent trying to gather crystals so they could kill the other two factions and claim the continent (and one of those factions was all Lizardfolk) while the other was just... kind of generic and dull for the most part. (Granted, I didn't push myself for even a whole week, so I am sure I got to see very little of the content)


Basically, overall while Eberron has a few elements in it that if focused on could totally create a unique experience that could only be had in a setting with its unique features and open up D&D to a totally different sort of game style than it had previously lent itself to exploring.
However, instead it gets laden down with all these factors that instead mean it generally gets used as a very bland, gamist, unsuspenseful, unchallenging setting with empowered standard heroes, lackluster or simply anemic antagonists in a world that is just inevitably completely stable, stale and dry as nothing can change and the heroes are just lesser trainees of the forces that have all the power in the world. It really ends up feeling very much like the pop MMORPG of settings with everything set to easy mode and nothing having any impact.

It really seems to me like the best approach to take with Eberron would be to remove as many of the bad elements as possible, not necessarily altering the world geography, but certainly altering a lot of what is going on in the regions by having them all be highly multiracial and instead divided by what sort of climate and real life cultural apparel tends to be reflected in each region and what sort of organizations are vying for power within it... in fact, maybe just start by focusing on one particular major metropolis instead of the whole continent. Make the really monstrous monsters into true horrors again and have them operating in the shadows right below the surface. Shifters, Changelings and the like should need to hide their true natures, lest a bounty be put on their heads. Warforged should be regarded as soulless, emotionless misbehaving machines with no rights by the majority of the populace as they were built for a very specific purpose, served their purpose and now just serve as reminders of an old war and the regrettable lengths people needed to go to in order to win it.
Make Dragonmarks far less reliable and far more random-- in fact, maybe consider them being something that only remarkable NPCs are likely to have! It should be something only high ranking members of "nobility" or "mafiaso" (as though there is a clear distinction besides who happens to be running things publicly) are supposed to bear aside from those that tend to appear randomly on people who generally tend to abuse their edge to rise to power if not hunted down and culled by one of the families quickly. Even if a player has one, they should be considered "marked for death" and need to hide it and be careful when they use its power.

Just so much could be done to turn the setting around and refocus it into a really distinct and unique experience. But that would mean reworking a lot of stuff I am sure its current fans feel quite attached to.

Of course, I think if one simply posited that a long time has passed since the 3E/4E incarnations and this version of the setting was simply hyper focused on one particular metropolis, it would go a long way towards making those changes more palatable. Fans of the "no conflict, super hero characters" version could reason that a lot of these factors might simply be true for other places in the world.
 
Last edited:

I think that a suggestion made in this thread - by [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] - that we may see APs being used to 'update' settings is an interesting one. So, we might get an Eberron AP. It features, uh, a plot about a Dragonmarked house doing nefarious stuff, and has stuff with, you know, zepplins and visiting the Voodoo Elves island and whatnot. Cool. And in the back of said book, taking up about 40 pages, would be the crunch for said adventure. So the book itself won't update the setting very much - really only covering the exact locations travelled to - but it would serve as a vehicle to allow crunch for the setting to be sold, within an interesting adventure path that can have a unique hook to sell itself to DMs with.

Though we should probably also note that Chris Perkins, in that interview with the mega-thread attached, noted that WotC don't feel bound to any particular formula for releases. Just because so far we have received an AP-heavy release schedule, doesn't necessarily mean that this is a hard and fast rule.
 

wedgeski

Adventurer
I think that a suggestion made in this thread - by [MENTION=3586]MerricB[/MENTION] - that we may see APs being used to 'update' settings is an interesting one. So, we might get an Eberron AP.
I think that's less a suggestion and all-but a certainty given Chris Perkins' train of thought in that interview, but I doubt it'll happen for a couple of years.
 

You know, it might not be popular with some Eberron fans, but I think it might be time for a timeline advancement. The idea of keeping the setting static has probably outlived its' usefulness, in the same way that the promise not to develop Sembia in the Forgotten Realms did.

Personally, I'd like to see about a decade jump. That would make Jaela Daran, arguably D&D's most high profile person of color, a grown woman. :)
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
You know, it might not be popular with some Eberron fans, but I think it might be time for a timeline advancement. The idea of keeping the setting static has probably outlived its' usefulness, in the same way that the promise not to develop Sembia in the Forgotten Realms did.

Personally, I'd like to see about a decade jump. That would make Jaela Daran, arguably D&D's most high profile person of color, a grown woman. :)

They should only do that if they are going to produce a huge campaign setting book a la the 3E one. If all they're going to do is an Adventurer's Guide sized book... then advancing the timeline just screws things up because there won't be enough page count to actually give the details for all the twelve nations that a timeline jump would deserve.
 


Remathilis

Legend
There were some good things about Eberron and some bad things. It is a setting that I feel had a lot of brilliant potential, but also some remarkably bad design decisions.

The Good
* The level of technology was superior to most settings, but not sci-fi/fantasy-level like Planescape or Spelljammer, but more like a fantastical version of late 1800s to early 1900s steampunk style.
* Vast cities with production bases and towering buildings to use as locations.
* Potential for a highly political bent to the adventures, far more so than other settings as everyone has various connections and everyone is vying for power rather than really clear ruling dynasties.
* Proper implementation of goblinoids, lizardfolk, orcs, rakasha, and sahuagin in a way most settings have utterly failed to do. Instead of simply tacking them on as "this is a form a 'monster' can take and who cares why they look this way or why they are here", there was thought put into implementing them in the world.

All of these allow for adventures that couldn't be done in other settings.

The Bad
* Tearing all horror elements out of vampires, werewolves, golems, dopplegangers and so on, reducing them to just supped up normal peoples and offering lesser versions of them all as typical PC races that everyone would see regularly wandering the streets. When "half-werewolf" is just the most common of all sorts of people you could run into, no longer can you sell the Werewolf off as a berserking rage-filled beast that is likely to harm anyone near it, including loved ones, and spread its disease and madness unchecked without you much having any power to stop it-- only able to make gut-wrenching decisions about how to stop the disease from spreading. Nor can golems be a demonstration of hubris coming back to punish the creator and all who might inadvertently have committed no crime but to be between the creation and the one who put it into motion. The fact that horror is basically
* Giving magical mutant superpowers to all members of the PHB races and only members of the PHB races. Although certainly some drama could ensue over the politics of whom people are allowed to marry or breed with to keep control of the marks "in the family", since that is an angle no one was willing to pursue it was a bad idea to introduce the concept as something reliable and predictable with only the "special" races having them and being able to be so certain about which marks would ever show up on which races. It would have been better if not only the PCs could have had them, but it was entirely possible for an Orc to be born that had a mark allowing her to create and spread fire and use that ability to rally an army of savages and slaves behind her or a lowly Kobold who was born with a mark that allowed him to charm people and abuses it to create a shadowy underground crime organization while becoming a hidden puppetmaster whose identity can only be grasped at. Limiting the dragonmarks to only PHB races and being prescriptive about who can have what really undermines creating mysterious or dangerous adversaries.
* Setting the nations too far apart and making them too monocultural. By the book, it is sort of lunacy that the typical adventuring party would even come together. Each and every nation has their proscribed people with clear borders between everything. This makes it so that all the conflict can really only happen at the borders. It is far better to be working with multicultural layered cities within whom power can shift between one people to another almost overnight. It would bring the conflict and adventure more to the unique features of the setting and set things up so that the PCs' actions could have great rippling effects without them even necessarily intending to, much less requiring them to overthrow whole nations to make any mark.
* Trying to stuff everything from every setting that ever existed into the setting. While some elements were put in there with care, a lot wasn't. I think the height of this is the idea of a "nation of monsters" as in every imaginable thing that doesn't get along with humans and lies outside the well defined space can apparently peacefully cohabitate in the same place. It is just an utterly bad concept. This also carries through to a major diffusion of Eberron unique core elements that I complimented it on. I have played two Eberron games-- an RTS one and an MMORPG one... and neither of them demonstrated the kind of semi-modern tech nor political structures nor sprawling cities... the first was just three factions on a deserted continent trying to gather crystals so they could kill the other two factions and claim the continent (and one of those factions was all Lizardfolk) while the other was just... kind of generic and dull for the most part. (Granted, I didn't push myself for even a whole week, so I am sure I got to see very little of the content)


Basically, overall while Eberron has a few elements in it that if focused on could totally create a unique experience that could only be had in a setting with its unique features and open up D&D to a totally different sort of game style than it had previously lent itself to exploring.
However, instead it gets laden down with all these factors that instead mean it generally gets used as a very bland, gamist, unsuspenseful, unchallenging setting with empowered standard heroes, lackluster or simply anemic antagonists in a world that is just inevitably completely stable, stale and dry as nothing can change and the heroes are just lesser trainees of the forces that have all the power in the world. It really ends up feeling very much like the pop MMORPG of settings with everything set to easy mode and nothing having any impact.

It really seems to me like the best approach to take with Eberron would be to remove as many of the bad elements as possible, not necessarily altering the world geography, but certainly altering a lot of what is going on in the regions by having them all be highly multiracial and instead divided by what sort of climate and real life cultural apparel tends to be reflected in each region and what sort of organizations are vying for power within it... in fact, maybe just start by focusing on one particular major metropolis instead of the whole continent. Make the really monstrous monsters into true horrors again and have them operating in the shadows right below the surface. Shifters, Changelings and the like should need to hide their true natures, lest a bounty be put on their heads. Warforged should be regarded as soulless, emotionless misbehaving machines with no rights by the majority of the populace as they were built for a very specific purpose, served their purpose and now just serve as reminders of an old war and the regrettable lengths people needed to go to in order to win it.
Make Dragonmarks far less reliable and far more random-- in fact, maybe consider them being something that only remarkable NPCs are likely to have! It should be something only high ranking members of "nobility" or "mafiaso" (as though there is a clear distinction besides who happens to be running things publicly) are supposed to bear aside from those that tend to appear randomly on people who generally tend to abuse their edge to rise to power if not hunted down and culled by one of the families quickly. Even if a player has one, they should be considered "marked for death" and need to hide it and be careful when they use its power.

Just so much could be done to turn the setting around and refocus it into a really distinct and unique experience. But that would mean reworking a lot of stuff I am sure its current fans feel quite attached to.

Of course, I think if one simply posited that a long time has passed since the 3E/4E incarnations and this version of the setting was simply hyper focused on one particular metropolis, it would go a long way towards making those changes more palatable. Fans of the "no conflict, super hero characters" version could reason that a lot of these factors might simply be true for other places in the world.
So you're answer to fixing Eberron is to make it the Forgotten Realms 2.0?

I can see you're not completely versed on the lore, which is understandable as neither Dragonshard not DDO actually bothered to use it, so let's look at some of your criticisms.

* the whole continent was one empire at one point, having broke into five supernations and then fractured further. They were fighting a century-long war, nationalism and propaganda was on hyper-mode for nearly 100 years! Racial nations only recently appeared out of these intermixed empires (much like how nations like Poland or Czechoslovakia did out of WW1) and the rhetoric is only now disappearing.
* Droam, the Monster kingdom, is literally a refugee nation of creatures viewed as hateful and evil by commoners. They took advantage of the war to find a place to stop being persecuted, even if it's not recognized as a sovereign nation (a kind of monster Israel, is your will).
* most of the races ARE feared: the Church of the Silver Flame has held endless Inquisitions against lycanthropes, hunting then to near extinction, and shifters bear a lot of their progenitors stigma. Changlings are distrusted for their capacity as spies in the new cold war climate. Warforged are viewed as soulless tools or property by some, anti warforged sentiments run in some places.
* dragonmarks are the backbone of the magical economy. They allow nonclassed npcs to use magical effects. Additionally, each mark manifested is watched by the dragons who believe it is part of the prophecy; rogue actors are ruthlessly murdered.

I could go on, but either most of your suggestions either exist or betray the core concepts of the setting.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
So you're answer to fixing Eberron is to make it the Forgotten Realms 2.0?

If you can tell me where and how in Forgotten Realms you can have steampunk technology and skyscrapers and so noir style detective/espionage in regards to noble houses and crime families in Forgotten Realms, I'd really like to know how you play yours because I've never much seen anything approaching it. I was saying focus on what makes it unique as all I have ever seen from it was a complete focus on the things that make it exactly like GreyHawk or Forgotten Realms except it is more childish, anime-esque and shallow when handling those elements.

I flipped through the Player's guide for 3rd edition and it certainly didn't imply there was anything approaching diversity in any of the regions. It was very cut and dry of "this nation is race X" all across the board. Two explicitly exclusive Elven nations (even reading ALL peoples in the region were elve), an explicit Dwarf nation, an explicit Gnome nation, an explicit Halfling nation, an explicit Goblinoid nation, a region where only Warforged lived and a region that was inhabited primarily by Orcs and enough humans to make half-orcs. That sort of list certainly implies to me that everyone keeps to their own region and doesn't bother anyone else.
The races clearly indicate which race exclusively has which mark and even the Aberrant mark can only be placed on one of the 6 markable races (which just so "happened" to be the ones in the 3E PHB). Which means the moment you have an inkling a mark is being used, you know with absolute certainty the race that is using it or if you think you are going to fight someone with a mark, you know precisely what they are capable of. It is a lot like having races assign specific spells to your sorcerer. (Although... either Warlock or Sorcerer subclasses might be the perfect way to implement a mark's abilities if only multiclassing worked a bit better.)

Warforged and Shifters are pictured throughout all the Eberron art as out and proud in the open in all the various art. Though I did come across a picture of an anti-Warforged protest, so I guess there is some indication that there is meant to be some distrust of them. There has just been a very poor job done conveying this. It would be far more interesting if a Shifter had cool powers, but they'd best be sure they can trust those around them before using them and they must be quite certain not to use their abilities publically and might want to kill any witnesses to them transforming.

So if playing two Eberron-setting games and a cursory skim through the originally printed player's guide leaves one with the feeling that the setting tends to utterly eschew its unique elements in favor of generic ones and falls very short of its potential in favor of buying 100% into MMORPG mentality, it doesn't bode well for the setting as it has been previously presented. If it is going to really be its own thing, it needs to start with something that really pushes its most unique elements to the forefront.

An AP that involves a dragon-mark using family engaging in malicious activity that the PCs need to root out and confront. Make it mystery story with chases across city streets and combat in tall buildings. Make persuasion, intimidation, athletics, investigation, history and arcana checks more common than initiative checks and have the adventure involve many morally gray choices that ask the players to prioritize their values as often as "kill the evil demon-summoning baddie". And display both the shining and the ugly sides of the world as the players explore it.

You do something like that, people will pay attention. And maybe the next adventure in the setting can be quite different-- maybe it can be a western-style adventure set what is effectively the "frontier", places that have been abandoned since the war and need to be resettled, and incorporate a lot of story elements from old popular western stories, maybe mix John Wayne together with some concepts from Kurosawa's work.

The point is, if one is going to do a setting at all, then the most ideal situation is that at the end of it one should say "I just couldn't have done this story in Forgotten Realms" and outside of a few key races and possibly powers, I just have never seen that. And... really.. given how shallow Warforged and Shifters and such tend to be handled, usually you could have just told the story in Forgotten Realms just fine.
 

Remove ads

Top