D&D 5E Old School Initiative

I really like the "declare then roll" system. Our table found that it got everyone involved at the same time, rather than everyone tuning out until it was their turn.

But... (and it's a really big but)...

Any system with a possible outcome of "you lose your turn because the thing you said you wanted to do 5 minutes ago can't happen now" is a terrible system.

That was a deal-breaker for my players.

They felt that to protect themselves they had to declare "i'm going to maybe attack and maybe cast a spell and maybe move and maybe take a bonus action" every single turn, and then take the penalty of rolling lots of dice and acting last.

Personally, I actually liked that aspect. I like it when choices have real consequences. The choice for flexibility is acting much later. But they disagreed, and in fact hated it. We only used Greyhawk initiative for a couple of sessions.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I really like the "declare then roll" system. Our table found that it got everyone involved at the same time, rather than everyone tuning out until it was their turn.

But... (and it's a really big but)...



That was a deal-breaker.

Super easy to fix. Don’t make them lose their action. Choose one action that characters can always take in lieu of your declared action if it’s no longer possible or desirable. Like Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or my favorite, Ready.
 

We roll initiative before the session starts so we can jump right into combat without pause, should it break out (I always chuckle to myself at this phrase as it nearly always does). If I've done my homework as DM, I've rolled for the monsters beforehand as well.

We experimented with "popcorn" initiative in two of my current groups. In both cases, we went back to the RAW as popcorn felt too gamey.

I'm with the simple-is-better camp. RAW initiative is simple. Maybe it is not "realistic" - but we're playing make-believe, right? Some players do tune out when it is not their turn, but that says more about them than the system. Other players pay attention and adjust what they want to do based on the actions of others before them. In either case, I rarely have someone who is frozen with indecision when his or her turn comes around.

At the end of the day, feel free to experiment with other initiative models to find what provides the most fun at your table. You don't need to stick with one forever. Just beware of unintended consequences of an alternative (e.g. a declared attack targets an enemy that goes down before the player's turn, so the player skips their turn - this is a major bummer, IMO).
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I had a lot of problems with the "Greyhawk" initiative system when I used it (detailed here: https://merricb.com/2017/07/22/greyhawk-initiative-another-look-2/).

I'm happy to run games with predeclared actions, but the way rogues work in particular (bonus action hide or disengage) causes a LOT of trouble when using them with 5E. AD&D's predeclared system worked mainly because movement wasn't a factor: once you were in melee, that was it. You didn't move again. Once you allow a lot of free movement, then things fall apart quickly.

Cheers!
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
True, but now you’re making the decision of what to do during a shared decision making time, which creates pressure to decide quickly that doesn’t exist when it’s “your turn,” and you’re making the decision with incomplete information, which encourages you to just pick something and make it work instead of trying to weigh all your options and figure out the perfect thing to do in this particular situation. And when it’s your turn you’re just executing how to do the thing you already decided to do. Ultimately it probably doesn’t have a big impact on the amount of time spent in combat, by in my experience it does dramatically improve the flow. There’s very little decision paralysis, which kills pacing for me. It does come at the cost of more complexity and cognitive load though, which may not be a worthwhile trade off for everyone. I wouldn’t use it with a group that wasn’t all pretty experienced with D&D and familiar with their own character’s abilities.

I dunno, I don't see that pressure being generated any better by the social pressure of "Can we please start now?" any more than "We would all like to take our turns this decade Bob."

If you want people to move faster, put them under a timer. I start with a 2 minute timer for new players. 1 minute for experienced players. Anyone who doesn't take their turn (and no, that's not "decide on an action within 1 minute", it's "resolve your whole turn") in one minute they get bumped to the end of the init. There they get 1 minute again. If they don't resolve their turn there, they lose it.

I also use a fixed order system. Left to right. Clockwise. Whichever happens to be the shape of the table. That way everyone knows when their turn is (I go after Bob!) and assume that, unless someone wants to Hold, they act as a group. So do the enemies.

Yeah, I know what I said about systems that cause people to lose their turns. But you have to draw a line somewhere. Act, Hold or Pass. In the words of Shia LaBeouf: Just do it!
 
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ad_hoc

(they/them)
Can you elaborate please?

The method I currently use is: I write numbers 20 to 1 on an A4 paper, and then have players announce their number, which I then write down. I add the monsters (same monsters are on same initiative). This takes a few moments, but once all the numbers are marked down, things progress fairly smoothly.

How does your system work? If I had to write down every few minutes it'd get tedious. I guess if the numbers of PCs is low then the table can just remember the order(?).

Well initiative is between 1 and 10. 1d4 for ranged, 1d8 for melee, d10 for spell, and d6 for everything else.

I either call out numbers starting at 1 or ask who has the lowest number and go from there. The players all know who is going first as they're rolling initiative while I'm rolling for the monsters so it goes pretty smoothly and quickly.

I think you can skip the paper entirely.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I had a lot of problems with the "Greyhawk" initiative system when I used it (detailed here: https://merricb.com/2017/07/22/greyhawk-initiative-another-look-2/).

I'm happy to run games with predeclared actions, but the way rogues work in particular (bonus action hide or disengage) causes a LOT of trouble when using them with 5E. AD&D's predeclared system worked mainly because movement wasn't a factor: once you were in melee, that was it. You didn't move again. Once you allow a lot of free movement, then things fall apart quickly.

Cheers!

At our table movement is free and so are bonus actions unless the bonus action would take more time than the regular action.

Basically everyone rolls 1 die, the highest of their actions and bonus actions. For example, if someone shoots and casts Healing Word, they roll 1d10 rather than 1d4.

One really nice side benefit of the system is to ask the players what their characters are doing in each scene rather than rolling for initiative. Instead of rolling for initiative and then asking the player what they want to do on their turn and having them be conflicted - Let's say they want to first talk to the monster or do something else, but they don't want to 'waste their turn', and since initiative is rolled does that mean we have to fight?

Instead what happens is everyone declares all at once so no one person is on the spot and there is a consistency in the game. At the start of every scene I ask all the players what they do, whether it is exploration, combat, or social interaction. Regular initiative separates combat into its own thing.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I dunno, I don't see that pressure being generated any better by the social pressure of "Can we please start now?" any more than "We would all like to take our turns this decade Bob."

If you want people to move faster, put them under a timer. I start with a 2 minute timer for new players. 1 minute for experienced players. Anyone who doesn't take their turn (and no, that's not "decide on an action within 1 minute", it's "resolve your whole turn") in one minute they get bumped to the end of the init. There they get 1 minute again. If they don't resolve their turn there, they lose it.
Oh wow, that’s way more time than I give my players. And you give them a second chance by bumping them to the back of the line? I don’t time new players, but once they’ve been at it long enough to know the basics of the game and their character’s abilities, I don’t give them more than a few seconds. You’ve had a whole round to think about what to do, now it’s your turn, use it or lose it. But then, I really hate indecision ruinging the flow of the action. I assume if you give players that much time it must not bother you as much as it does me.

Anyway, while it might not seem like it makes a big difference, my experience has been that it really does. I highly recommend trying it, at least for one session to see if it feels better than (or worse than) you expect. Even without the speed factor part if you’re worried about that adding too much unnecessary complexity. Just have everyone declare an action at the top of the round (Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Hide, Search, Use an Object, or Improvise an Action.) Don’t make them declare how they’ll use that action, any bonus actions, or if or where they’ll move. Just say what Action you’re going to take, and roll +Dex. You also declare for the monsters in groups (the goblins are going to Attack, the shaman is going to Cast a Spell). Everyone keeps track of their own number. Count down from 25 or so, and the players stop you when you say their number. On their turns they can move and use Bonus Actions as they like, but must use either their declared action or Ready a different action. See if it reduces analysis paralysis.
 

toucanbuzz

No rule is inviolate
I did a lot of reading on the Speed Factor DMG variant because I'm considering implementing it and because half my group played this way for years during the AD&D years. See also some feedback from people who've used it and aren't just theorycrafting.

PROS:
* Combat requires group strategy. Each round you coordinate as a group instead of every player acting as his/her own island.
* Builds tension. In 5th, Fighter with 1 hit point attacks dragon because Fighter knows Cleric will go before Dragon in the next initiative round. He is action in omniscient fashion. This option is removed and tension is created because the Fighter doesn't know if the Cleric will get that Heal off first and has to plan accordingly.
*Removes "analysis paralysis." This isn't my term, but it means your player's turn comes up, and they spend minutes agonizing over the optimal decision of casting the perfect spell, or using a wand, or drinking a potion. If you've played D&D long enough, you've seen this.

Cons:
* Fear of losing an action. Founded and unfounded. It'd be a rare day your action is wasted if you coordinate with the group. In 2nd edition, played this way for years and don't recall it ever being an issue. But yeah, it's possible the enemy goes first, scatters, and your announced Fireball is less optimal than before. That's the tension part above and the way AD&D worked, both ways. If your Wizard puts up a Wall of Fire, the Trolls who decided to Attack now have a tough choice: run through the wall or forfeit the attack and play it safe. In 5th, a player trapped behind the wall has more options than a Troll and might use an item, drink a potion, etc., in response to the Wall going up.

This is the major concern my caster players have raised. Personally, I'd consider changes:

* Attack action. If turn comes and need to switch weapon, penalize initiative for retrieving an item and allow it (e.g. mobile enemies get out of attack reach, so you need to use a javelin).
* Casting a Spell. Speed is based off the spell level. Let something else be cast using that slot (e.g. 4th level) if the player's strategy gets screwed over by a change in the battle. Of course, this defeats the purpose of strategy and avoiding analysis paralysis delays.


*Slower Play. I've read that once players know their modifiers, play isn't slowed down. What you lose declaring each round you save in "analysis paralysis" of deciding what to do when your turn arrives. But, initially, you'd each need a "cheat sheet" card until it became second nature.
*DM tracking. DMs unfamiliar with AD&D may have issues in large battles with deciding what each combatant is doing, each round in advance. This can slow play and would require practice. You'd have to note the evil cleric is casting Inflict Wounds, the gnolls are shooting bows, and the fiend is trying to summon more of its kind. Also, the DM (or players) would have to track duration effects (e.g. till the end of your next turn) because these would be triggered by the Initiative number they activated on.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Any system with a possible outcome of "you lose your turn because the thing you said you wanted to do 5 minutes ago can't happen now" is a terrible system.
So, a terrible reply matches nicely?

Announce-then-resolve has its benefits, but there are some hazards:
- Can make combat feel choppy (announce, resolve, announce, resolve, etc)
- Order of announcing becomes important
- Players could be resentful if the DM doesn't announce as well
- Honor-challenged players could modify their announcements if you're not writing them all down
 

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