Monks in Pathfinder 2: Fighting Styles & Ki

Context is your friend, here. A typical (?) 25-points-buy PF1 Monk (human) probably has STR 16, DEX 14, WIS 16 (CON 14, INT 12, CAR 8?).

So, at Level 1: to hit +3 (BAB is 0), Flurry at +1/+1, AC 15. He can flurry only if he stands still and full attack.

A PF2 STR-based Monk is looking to get STR 18, DEX 16. So: to hit +5 (as he's proficient with unarmed attacks, he gets a [Level+0] modifier on top of the characteristic modifier); Flurry at +5/+1; AC 15 (+3 DEX, +1 Level, +1 Expert proficiency Unarmoured). He can move twice and Flurry; or he can move once, Flurry and Strike; or he can stand still, Flurry and Strike twice. Perhaps better yet, he can move, Flurry and move again (to get out of combat).

He's more mobile and not MAD as before.

Ghal Maraz said:

Context is your friend, here.
...
He's more mobile and not MAD as before.

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Context does help - those are some interesting points. With the new action economy in Pathfinder 2 that's being proposed, is it possible that the monk also just stand still and Flurry 3 times - for 6 attacks in a single round?

That may explain the hefty -4 penalty on Flurry. If a monk can typically move into combat and immediately make 4 attacks on a target, the -4 penalty sounds like a lot less of a penalty than before.

When I initially read it I was thinking that a -4 penalty is really severe - because AC and attacks are scaling with level that's basically hitting like you are 4 levels lower than you are. In 13th Age (which also scales like that with level) that's a pretty severe penalty. But if you're making 4 attacks in a round, that penalty might not be so severe. (I assume that there's some penalty on a second attack action in a round from what I've read - I don't know what it is but my gut assumes it's -2, so that would mean that the monk with a +5 bonus to attack would be hitting with +5/+1/+3/-1 on four attacks with Flurry. -4 still seems steep, but not as steep as I thought).

No. A Monk can only Flurry once per round (we don't know if there are later levels' Feat that improve on this).

The other attacks ("Strike" action) suffer all from a bigger malus too, being at -8. But you have to remember that those attacks, while probably hitting less, are possible from Level 1 onwards, so it shouldn't sound strange that they won't hit so often.

Ghal Maraz said:

No. A Monk can only Flurry once per round (we don't know if there are later levels' Feat that improve on this).

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Is it actually different to what Morrus posted in the OP?

Nope. It's the same. Its just that Morrus hasn't specified the only one per round thing about Flurries.

Worth a note on the subject of AC and Attacks. When it comes to AC, Mark Seifter commented on how the Monk holds up:

"That and starting with expert proficiency in unarmored defense is much faster than any other class in the game (even paladin) gets expert armor proficiency, and you're in a situation where Logan was right about the monk effectively wearing a no-restrictions chain shirt, assuming you have either bracers or a solid mage armor (which now lasts 24 hours). In fact, a full-on Dex-based monk will very eventually hit a point where they can equal even a full plate paladin, all while not having any of the restrictions of heavy armor, which is pretty incredible."

Sounds like Monks will be fine AC wise.

As for Attacks, normally attacks work at a +0/-5/-10 rate. Any additional attacks beyond that stick to the -10. Since a Monk's unarmed strike is Agile, it's instead +0/-4/-8 with any additional attacks at a -8.

On the subject of Flurry of Blows, as far as I'm aware, it takes a penalty, but only as normal for multiple attacks. The Flurry should either be (+0/-4), (-4/-8) or (-8/-8) depending upon when you use it in your number of attacks. As I read it, you don't start with a -4 penalty on your first attack, but it follows the multiple attack penalty. So if you start with it, it functions like two attack actions would normally in one action, but if it's not first, then the first attack in flurry will get penalized, since it's a later attack.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see if a PF2 Monk's unarmed damaged improves with levels like the 3.5/PF1 monk's does. Never saw much advantage to Str in a 3.5/PF1 monk due to the fairly quick improvements in unarmed damage as levels increased. Found it better to work on Dex and Wis for the BAB increases(assuming Weapon Finesse Unarmed feat) and AC stat bonus stacking. Str is only useful for improving load carrying before becoming encumbered and losing much of your speed bonus. What I found was the PF1 monk fell behind in BAB and sometimes can't compete with the other melee classes. If you can't hit, you can't damage.

As best as I can tell, the multi-attack penalty stack (0/-4/-8)
Meaning there is no good reason to stand still and swing a bunch of times, and instead should use that last action to move, raise a shield, or whatever else.

Flurry of blows lets you attack twice, and still have 2 actions to move twice.

Koloth said:

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see if a PF2 Monk's unarmed damaged improves with levels like the 3.5/PF1 monk's does. Never saw much advantage to Str in a 3.5/PF1 monk due to the fairly quick improvements in unarmed damage as levels increased. Found it better to work on Dex and Wis for the BAB increases(assuming Weapon Finesse Unarmed feat) and AC stat bonus stacking. Str is only useful for improving load carrying before becoming encumbered and losing much of your speed bonus. What I found was the PF1 monk fell behind in BAB and sometimes can't compete with the other melee classes. If you can't hit, you can't damage.

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Well, remember that any +X enhancements to weapons improve their damage dice, not the modifier.

So your item for boosting unarmed damage (I want to say the forums have been calling it Handwraps of Mighty Fists) would raise your unarmed damage dice. So a +5 would make it, say, 6d6 or whatever dice you end up using. Say you use the Dragon Style, and it's 6d10 instead of the 6d6.

mewzard said:

Well, remember that any +X enhancements to weapons improve their damage dice, not the modifier.

So your item for boosting unarmed damage (I want to say the forums have been calling it Handwraps of Mighty Fists) would raise your unarmed damage dice. So a +5 would make it, say, 6d6 or whatever dice you end up using. Say you use the Dragon Style, and it's 6d10 instead of the 6d6.

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Wasn't really worried about item enhancements. A 1st lvl PF1 monk does 1d6 unarmed. At 4th lvl, that goes to 1d8 and 1d10 at 8th. Oddly, this made the special monk weapons mostly pointless as they capped at 1d6. Saw no mention in this write up or the Paizo blog on any damage progression by level.

Wonder if the PF2 monk will have the same issues with unarmed damage vs monk weapon damage?