The final word on DPR, feats and class balance

Tony Vargas

Legend
. Which is basically the argument that the rules don't matter at all.
And thats not as bad an argument as it would have been 8 or 12 years ago. Between the hardening of the rule of RAW with 3.5, and the dismantling of 4e with Essentials, rules were pretty well codified and the DM who didn't like them was obliged to put on his designer hat and fix them - a daunting prospect. Now the rules - if you can pin them down at all - are subordinate to DM rulings, if not, from behind the shield of the screen, whim.

The RAW can still be discussed as CapnZapp often tries to do, but it's relevance isn't what it was.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Want to reward that dagger thrower? Set up scenarios where openly carrying large weapons is forbidden or difficult.
That's one way. But I don't think it's the way that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] is interested in. Introducing social constraints of the sort you describe can be used to "reward" or "punish" any build of any sort, as the GM chooses.

Whereas I think CapnZapp has in mind a knife thrower who has the same sort of chance of contributing to victory in combat in a standard module/AP as does a hand crossbow specialists or a great weapon fighter.

Or just don't worry about it. A longbow should probably be more dangerous than daggers.
If someone wants an archetype to be mechanically viable (under fairly understandable, even if not shared, assumptions about what "viability" means), then it doesn't help them to tell them not to want it!

Or let thrown weapons count as ranged weapons for purposes sharp shooter.
Whereas I think this is the sort of answer that actually speaks to the OP's concerns. What sorts of tweaks to 5e will resolve the issues raised?

In many cases GWM will be better then TWF by a point or two if it really matters. But people that crunch numbers IMHO also tend to over-emphasize the difference. In my personal experience (which may not match anyone else's) the difference between the different fighting styles is so small most people won't notice.

<snip>

I and my friends will continue building characters that sound fun even if they do fall a few points behind the curve.
This makes me wonder: is it a virtue that there is that one-or-two-point gap? Or is it an inevitable side effect that in principle would be avoided, but in practice is going to crop up in any rule set?

I'm not sure about you (Oofta) - but some posters in this thread seem to be saying that it is a virtue - that it would be undesirable for the system to not include that gap. For my own part, I don't understand that view. I don't see what the damage gap between those two strategies for dealing damage adds to the game.

(If the answer is that the gap is, in fact, balanced by other considerations - eg action economy (though in this particular case I think that runs the other way) - or that once there are magic weapons there is less of a gap because the dual wielder gets to deploy two bonus weapons - then in fact, in the sense the OP cares about, there is no gap. I'm asking the above question on the assumption that the gap in mechanical effectiveness is a real one.)
 

Aldarc

Legend
I feel like the real issues thread like these tend to run into is the focus on Damage Per Round to begin with. I feel like it's very similar to the early days of tracking professional basketball statistics.
I wish I could give you 1 XP for your post and an additional 1 XP for your use of a basketball analogy.

The OP is complaining that the game has some dominant strategies that crowed out other archetypes (eg thorowing knives). That may or myay not be true, but that complaint is not what posters seem to be addressing.
To rephrase the sentiment in terms of a supers game, it seems that you are saying that the culture of 5e (potentially) cultivates character creation strategies that encourage players to build Thors, Iron Men, Hulks, and Dr. Stranges while discouraging Hawkeyes and Black Widows.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
i agree that DPR is highly overrated by some... just because a metric is easy to determine once you make all sorts of assumptions does not make it relevant.

As i commented in a few posts on a few threads in my experience DPR is not a good indicator at all of overall success or failure.

Even when one focuses on DAMAGE ONLY a few rounds disabling a key foe or giving a high producer disadvantage can do a lot more for your success failure than dumping your concentration slots onto buffing a GWM guy for a few more points per attack - if for no other reason than thats a curing turn the cleric can turn to offense or more control.

But that doesn't plug into excel spreadsheets in white rooms as easy for some in the the OMMI crowd. (Optimizer-Min-Mix-Idealists)

The DPR of the base classes is fine. I dont care that a ranger has less DPR than a Barbarian (hunter ranger might win IDK) but its close enough.

I think the problem is the disparity between the other feats and the -5/+10 part which in effect once you cheese it is more like -1 or -2 /+10 in a game with low ACs. I have seen it cheesed out to the point they hit AC 20 reliably with the -5 part all because an adventure had a +2 item in it, throw in bless, advantage and a bard dice.

I saw all of this in action 2014, early 2015 at the latest and have seen a low level Sorlock played but she stopped playing it as spamming EB is kinda boring even when compared to a champion fighter who can use things like second wind and action surge tactically.
 

5ekyu

Hero
"For my own part, I don't understand that view. I don't see what the damage gap between those two strategies for dealing damage adds to the game."

For me i can express why i am not anywhere close to the OMMI position on the virtues of eliminating that 2-3 point white room excel sheet disparity.

It comes from two places, neighbors i would suggest.

1 The actual play value of these things result in a lot more circumstantial variance based on setting, table expectations etc... Just because DPR is easy to calculate doesnt mean it is meaningful enough to make fundamental changes to a game. Conflicts are not only winable and losable by DPR. This isnt some MMO with DPR tests and sudden death clocks that kick in at 33% health on the boss. A far bigger variance in TTRPG comes from the adversaries and scenario and campaign design than assumptive variances on DPR dependent on a laundry list of conditionals.

2 Everytime i have seen games get focused in on "damage math parity" to the extremes being pointed at and sniffed around, it lead them down a path to flavorlessness. In order to create parity sufficient enough for the idealists, you end up (typically) having to cut out elements and complexities which are "too" circumstantial, "too" not fitsble into easy assumptions, etc. A lot of the language used in this argument here seems very similar to if not identical to the same idealist language applied to systems thst are already broken down to flavorless building blocks but where even then its not ideal enough for the crowd.

In short, its never " close enough" for those staking out the more extreme positions on balance by math instead of balancability and playability.

Dont think thats the direction being put forth?

Go look at threads where say feats acquisition is broken into feat points earned by level and each feat given its perfect cost assessed by whatever sense of "what matters most" trips the particular OMMI posters triggers today.
 

pemerton

Legend
A number of posters have pointed out ways in which spell casters can contribute to the game otherwise than by dealing damage. That is true - in fact, I would have thought it is quite uncontroversial (even if someone thinks damage is better, still it's obvious that charming a bandit king contributes to the game).

But that doesn't respond at all to the OP's concerns that fighters and other damage-dealer types get crowded out in a non-feat game by sorcerers, and in a feat game get channelled into a handful of optimal builds (optimal because of the feat support).

a feat like Great Weapon Master may be seen by some as a clearly superior option, and a player who doesn't select it is not being "optimal". But that's only when combat efficacy is the only goal.

For those who aren't as concerned with combat efficacy, or at least for whom it's not the sole concern, such balance is far less important, and certainly not a necessity.
This seems to miss the points that, at least for me, were the heart of the OP.

You are correct that, if a player doesn't care about damage, then the fact that a two-handed sword is better than knife-fighting is neither here nor there. But the player who does care about damage can't easily realise that goal playing a knife-fighter. This is the OP's "Problem #2".

The "further flaw" that the OP identifies is that, even if we put feats to one side, the knife fighter is in serious danger of being eclipsed by the warlock or sorcerer, who can do the same sort of ranged damage as a knife fighter, or even better, while also having the flexibility benefits of being a D&D spell caster.

It seems to me that there are two main responses to these points (other than agreeing, as eg [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION] seems to). One is to dispute their mechanical foundations eg to show that, in fact, the rules support a knife fighter whose mechanical effectiveness is comparable to a greatsword wielder, a warlock, a sorcerer, etc. I don't think anyone in this thread has tried this in a serious fashion. (I feel that showing that the sorcerer has enough spell points for "only" 5 or 6 powered-up encounters is proving the OP's point rather than refuting it!)

The other is to show that it shouldn't matter to the player of the knife fighter, who wants to do meaningful amounts of damage, that his/her typical expected damage is less than that of other fairly standard builds.

I don't think this second response is hopeless, but I think it needs to be tackled head-on. Simply telling that player that s/he's wrong to want to do meaningful amounts of damage doesn't count. [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] is coming closest, I think (with his empasis on "GM empowerment").

As someone who is mostly a spectator in this thread, I'm finding the failure to fully engage with the OP's claims a bit frustrating, as the second response in particular has the prospect of being quite interesting in bringing out some deep considerations in RPG play and RPG design.

EDIT: I wrote the above before reading [MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION]'s post. I read that post as making a point at least somewhat similar to mine.
 

Oofta

Legend
That's one way. But I don't think it's the way that [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] is interested in. Introducing social constraints of the sort you describe can be used to "reward" or "punish" any build of any sort, as the GM chooses.

Whereas I think CapnZapp has in mind a knife thrower who has the same sort of chance of contributing to victory in combat in a standard module/AP as does a hand crossbow specialists or a great weapon fighter.

If someone wants an archetype to be mechanically viable (under fairly understandable, even if not shared, assumptions about what "viability" means), then it doesn't help them to tell them not to want it!

Whereas I think this is the sort of answer that actually speaks to the OP's concerns. What sorts of tweaks to 5e will resolve the issues raised?

This makes me wonder: is it a virtue that there is that one-or-two-point gap? Or is it an inevitable side effect that in principle would be avoided, but in practice is going to crop up in any rule set?

I'm not sure about you (Oofta) - but some posters in this thread seem to be saying that it is a virtue - that it would be undesirable for the system to not include that gap. For my own part, I don't understand that view. I don't see what the damage gap between those two strategies for dealing damage adds to the game.

(If the answer is that the gap is, in fact, balanced by other considerations - eg action economy (though in this particular case I think that runs the other way) - or that once there are magic weapons there is less of a gap because the dual wielder gets to deploy two bonus weapons - then in fact, in the sense the OP cares about, there is no gap. I'm asking the above question on the assumption that the gap in mechanical effectiveness is a real one.)

Concerning dagger throwers, I have a couple of issues. First, not every option has to be optimal in terms of DPR. The advantage the dagger thrower should have is flexibility in melee vs short distance range and ability to hide weapons. Why should they be DPR equivalent to every other option? I may like the idea of wielding a wet noodle as my weapon, doesn't mean there has to be a wet noodle build that's optimal.

But if you go two-weapon fighting and daggers you get a bonus attack whether ranged or melee while having weapons that are easily concealed. May not matter for every campaign or every player. But there are reasons soldiers carry rifles into combat not revolvers. Or do you think if we had a modern D&D they should be made somehow comparable so that they're "balanced"?

For hand-crossbows, you have to have a free hand to load your crossbow. A generous DM may ignore that rule, allow a bandoleer of loaded crossbows (fire, drop, load, fire pull out next one) or they may not. Once again, depends on campaign. Personally I do think hand crossbows are little more than toys and IMHO should go back to doing 1 HP of damage and be poison delivery mechanisms. But it's a minor issue I ignore because some people have fun with it.

I do not think it's a virtue that there's a one-or-two point gap, I just think it's an overblown issue that has always been there in all editions. It's futile to complain about stuff like this for a few reasons. First, it's mostly in the eye of the beholder. Second, it's going to vary on a game by game basis. Hitting a lot of high AC targets who target people with the lowest AC first? That GWM doesn't look so great. Third, [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] is pining for the impossible. It's not feasible to have a game as complex as D&D be completely balanced or to have as many options as it does and expect one set of encounter building guidelines that will work for all groups. He's asking for something that has never existed and will never exist. Add an option to increase the damage of dagger throwers? If the math shows that dagger throwers are now half a point better under ideal circumstances, it will now become the "go to" build and some people will consider it broken.

I think 5E does a better job of balancing different builds and features than previous editions (ignoring 4E because it's approach was so different). In addition, I, and many others have given the OP many, many suggestions on many, many threads on how to address his problems. He doesn't accept them because they're not "official". Or he just likes to throw the same stupid complaint out every few weeks to see what kind of response he'll get. Not sure.
 

pemerton

Legend
pemerton said:
The OP is complaining that the game has some dominant strategies that crowed out other archetypes (eg throwing knives). That may or may not be true, but that complaint is not what posters seem to be addressing.
To rephrase the sentiment in terms of a supers game, it seems that you are saying that the culture of 5e (potentially) cultivates character creation strategies that encourage players to build Thors, Iron Men, Hulks, and Dr. Stranges while discouraging Hawkeyes and Black Widows.
I don't think the superhero metaphor really helps.

What I think the OP is saying is that - when it comes to building a damage-oriented character - the game has dominant strategies (eg great weapon, hand crossbow) that crowd out others (eg knife throwing).

This claim may or may not be true - on its face it seems plausible to me, at least at a table which plays with a reasonable degree of mechanical deftness - but in any event it doesn't seem to address it to eg point out that casters have many interesting and potentially useful non-damage dealing options.
 

Sadras

Legend
Speaking of that, I have a problem with chess. I'm kind of at the higher end of average skill, but I'm still average. So any actual serious player can trash the floor with me, but odds are any random person will grow frustrated playing with me. I've even tried to deliberately pay less attention to give my opponents a better chance, but turns out that boys feel like I'm cherry tapping them so they get frustrated even more quickly. So I've basically ran out of people to play with.

I suspect that might be a common issue with games that rely predominantly or solely on skill. Could be wrong, but that is my initial take on this.
 

pemerton

Legend
i can express why i am not anywhere close to the OMMI position on the virtues of eliminating that 2-3 point white room excel sheet disparity.

It comes from two places, neighbors i would suggest.

1 The actual play value of these things result in a lot more circumstantial variance based on setting, table expectations etc... Just because DPR is easy to calculate doesnt mean it is meaningful enough to make fundamental changes to a game. Conflicts are not only winable and losable by DPR.
This doesn't seem to be an argument in favour of the gap. It's an argument that it doesn't matter, isn't it?

Everytime i have seen games get focused in on "damage math parity" to the extremes being pointed at and sniffed around, it lead them down a path to flavorlessness.

<snip>

A lot of the language used in this argument here seems very similar to if not identical to the same idealist language applied to systems thst are already broken down to flavorless building blocks but where even then its not ideal enough for the crowd.
This also doesn't seem to be an argument in favour of the gap. Rather, it seems to be an argument that it can't be elminated.

Btw, what "flavourless" games do you have in mind?

In order to create parity sufficient enough for the idealists, you end up (typically) having to cut out elements and complexities which are "too" circumstantial, "too" not fitsble into easy assumptions, etc.
I don't know what elements and complexiities you have in mind, partly because I'm not sure what RPGs you have in mind.

I don't think flavour depends on mechanical intricacies, does it?
 

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