Making firearms more important

Y'all posted while I was busy typing.

malcolm_n said:

Overwatch: In the middle of a gun fight, everybody is behind barrels. One guy leans out, pops a round or two off, then hides again. The canny soldier positions himself so that the next time one of his enemies shows himself, he can shoot the villain. Taking aim at the last place he saw the guy shoot from, the soldier is ready to open fire.

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Morrus said:

In my mind, overwatch covers an area not a specific target - it certainly does in computer games and tabletop skirmish games. He should be able to take a shot at *anyone* who pops their head out, not just one guy.

I'd call aiming where one specific guy is to be "covering" or "specific overwatch" or -- well, I can't think of a good name. Marking. Dunno - you could have it as a specific form of overwatch which is better but only applies to that one target.

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That sounds more like a readied action. I want to shoot at this target when they break cover for any reason. Overwatch isn't the same thing. Overwatch is more generalized, like Morrus says; it's more like a readied action to shoot anything within a specific area or direction.

Alright, I can work with that. So, running with it, we've got something like:

The party enters the building in formation. The soldier takes point and uses overwatch to keep an eye out for bandits. Immediately, he fires on two foes who think to sandwich him in a doorway. One goes down, so he turns and levels his weapon at the remaining enemy before pointing out that the man is now outnumbered and suggesting he come quietly.

Overwatch (Combat Maneuver): As a full-round action, you can make a combat maneuver roll and begin using overwatch to scan a 30 ft.-radius area centered on you for enemies. While using this maneuver, you have a readied action to attack any enemy with a CMD less than your check result that reveals himself before the start of your next turn. You can make up to 1 attack at your full attack bonus per enemy in this way. Using overwatch does not draw attacks of opportunity, but you can still do so by performing other actions which might (such as moving).
Once you have already started using overwatch, you can continue it from round to round without rerolling, but you must decide at the start of each round to do so. During any round in which you continue using Overwatch, you can also perform up to one of the following actions.

• Move up to half your speed.
• Reroll your combat maneuver check.
• Reload, store, or draw a weapon
• Switch between overwatch and targeted overwatch (if you have that feat).

Targeted Overwatch
You take careful aim at an enemy you know is hiding. When he shows himself, you strike.
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: When using the overwatch combat maneuver, you can target a single creature that you know is hiding instead of an area. You get a +4 bonus to your attack rolls against the hidden creature if it hasn't moved since the start of your last turn.

Plus the obligatory Improved/Greater Overwatch. Greater + Targeted would = +4 to the Maneuver roll (and +2 CMB against) and +4 to a single attack against a hidden creature that hasn't moved. Pretty good for giving up your other attacks.

In response to your last post on page 3 - Characters with ranged weapons in this setting can (now) make attacks of opportunity against other creatures as though they start their turn in the adjacent square directly between them. I have no automatic weapons right now to consider, and made SupF allow for semiautomatic minimum to keep it available to a majority. It would be a case of usability vs. realism.

malcolm_n said:

Characters with ranged weapons in this setting can (now) make attacks of opportunity against other creatures as though they start their turn in the adjacent square directly between them. I have no automatic weapons right now to consider, and made SupF allow for semiautomatic minimum to keep it available to a majority. It would be a case of usability vs. realism.

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The only problem I see with this is that using a ranged weapon usually provokes an attack of opportunity, so a character can fire on someone who's attempting to fire on him, and then does that usage allow an AoO on the character taking an AoO? I still think it's neater and less complicated for Overwatch to provide attacks of opportunity for any action taken. It just strikes me as more elegant, though either version works.

I think Overwatch looks good, with two suggestions. I think a cone fits the concept of the maneuver better, since overwatch usually involves facing a single direction. I know Pathfinder doesn't normally utilize facing rules for combat, but I think this is one case where it would benefit. To me, the 30 foot radius puts me in mind of someone who's constantly turning around to watch the area in all directions and so isn't capable of focusing on any one particular direction. And 30 feet seems too close and encourages melee combat as opposed to firefights. I'd also remove the ability to move half your speed. Maybe it's just me, but it seems counter to the concept of the maneuver.

As an example scenario:
The SWAT team approaches the bank entrance, preparing to breach. The sniper on the roof top across the street is already on Overwatch, waiting to take a shot. One member pulls open the door, another using Overwatch as the others rush through the doorway. Caught off guard, the criminals attempt to take cover. The sniper fires on one, putting him down, while the team member at the door fires on another who attempts to stop the entrance, wounding him in the shoulder and forcing him back into cover. As the first three in take cover, one uses Suppressive Fire and another Overwatch to allow the final member to cease Overwatch and enter the building, while the sniper makes another shot.

Once again, it's a case of usability vs. realism. And either version works well.

I felt like fanning left, then right would be better represented by a radius. Maybe 50 ft. instead? Felt too powerful, but maybe not. As a cone, I would definitely want to keep the half move after you've already sacrificed a round to do it. At least that way you could still reposition the cone.

Anybody want to offer a tie-breaker? I could go either way, but there are some aspects of it that would be better in play vs. more realistic.

Alright, my current plan is to leave Overwatch as a 50 ft.-radius to 1) distinguish it further from suppressive fire, which works in a cone and a line and 2) keep combat from becoming too reliant on miniatures/maps (ie facing). Testing it out last night in play, the radius doesn't feel too big or small when you're actually in-game since enemies are unlikely to charge out at you with a knife, and it allows for one guy to be the "point man" while the others can focus on either their task or another aspect of combat. Targeted Overwatch would then allow you to follow 1 target out to 1 range increment.

I'm also strongly considering taking the majority of these and putting them into their own complete section (Ranged Combat) rather than spread them out into Combat, Feats, Classes, and Equipment. From a layout standpoint, would that be preferred, or do more people want everything in its exact location when reading?

Alright, that sounds good for Overwatch.

I'd say put them into their own section, if only because that makes them more noticeable and implies they're more important.

Here's a quick look at the completed rules as we've discussed them. I formatted them as a preview that I also plan to put up on the EnPublishing forum.

Of course, questions and comments are always welcome. Thank you for the help, and pending Morrus' input these should be what we'll see in the completed Myths PF player's guide.

I wouldn't say *all* ranged attacks don't attract AoOs. A sniper rifle in melee is a bit of a stretch! A laser pistol, though -- someone#'s grappling you, and you just squeeze the trigger.

Perhaps the overwatch could be range-linked? A sniper in a tower has a different overwatch radius to a guy with a pistol.

The whole "chapter on ranged fire" approach looks great! I think just having it in its own section will do half the work for us.

Something like this perhaps?

• Characters can make ranged attacks in melee with one-handed weapons without drawing attacks of opportunity (unless attacking with a melee weapon would also draw one).

And rather than increase overwatch's radius, we could include a sniper feat. It would allow for characters who want to take that path.

Sniper
Prerequisite: BAB +1, 5 ranks in Perception
Benefit: When using Overwatch with a two-handed ranged weapon, you gain a new action that you can perform each round. This action allows you to become flat-footed and target a cone out to 1 range increment instead of a radius.
Normal: You can only perform one of the three listed actions during each round while using Overwatch.

New basic equipment: Weapon Scope (10 Cr)
A weapon scope gives the user a +2 bonus to attacks made outside of 1 range increment, but the user also takes a -2 penalty to attacks made within 1 range increment. Adding or removing a weapon scope from a ranged weapon requires an action, but characters with quick draw can do so as a free action. Only firearms and bows can benefit from a weapon scope. The Distance tech enhancement can also be added to a ranged weapon to increase its range increment.

malcolm_n said:

Something like this perhaps?

• Characters can make ranged attacks in melee with one-handed weapons without drawing attacks of opportunity (unless attacking with a melee weapon would also draw one).

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Well, that was the whole point of my "sidearm" keyword, which was designed to avoid folks having to interpret phrases like "ranged one-handed weapons".