Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[DemonLord57]

I agree that not all powers are created equal but that isn't quite the same as the discussion here. I guess if you wanted something more inline in strength with Sure Strike. They should have said when used against 1 target you only get 1 roll to hit for 2[W]. Therefore Sure Strike hits more often but Twin Strike hits for more damage so its more of a choice.

You are missing my point. I am not saying that this is something that needs to be "fixed". I am saying that this provides substantial evidence that the designers did not think through these abilities to the degree you seem to think that they did. My point is that you don't know what they intended, and they probably didn't make this system with a statistical mind. They made what they thought looked and sounded cool. This can often lead to the unfortunate side effect that yes, there are certain options that are just better than the others. This isn't bad, IMO. It's all part of the game, and it's fun to find out what's a good choice and what isn't.

 

[IanB]

But it is unbalanced.

The weapons having non-identical results does not make this unbalanced. There's nothing in the numbers you posted that is going to break the game.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

While the damage increase may seem dramatic, for the level of magic item in question, it's really rather meager.

Tony I agree with much that you said except for the above. You're correct that 2d weapons perform on a bell as opposed to a fixed percent for 1d weapons. The difference isn't that meager when you're dealing with powers that deal 4+[W] damage.

And don't forget when we throw the in gauntlets again the 2d weapons get a bigger bang from it.

You are missing my point. I am not saying that this is something that needs to be "fixed". I am saying that this provides substantial evidence that the designers did not think through these abilities to the degree you seem to think that they did. My point is that you don't know what they intended, and they probably didn't make this system with a statistical mind. They made what they thought looked and sounded cool. This can often lead to the unfortunate side effect that yes, there are certain options that are just better than the others. This isn't bad, IMO. It's all part of the game, and it's fun to find out what's a good choice and what isn't.

I completely agree with you but you can also see that they may have meant "die/dice" when talking maximum damage and missed it in the editing.

Another question, when someone asks "what's the max damage of a falchion?" Is the reply "8" or "4" and "4"? On a basic hit from a falchion does it do 1 wound of "8" or 2 of "4"?

 

[Obryn]

I always find it interesting which unusual corner-cases will be seized upon as a crucial rules failure to people.

This is one I didn't expect to see. The differences are so small, and so non-game-breaking, I'm a little interested in why the OP thinks it's a critical failure in the game.

-O

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

I always find it interesting which unusual corner-cases will be seized upon as a crucial rules failure to people.

This is one I didn't expect to see. The differences are so small, and so non-game-breaking, I'm a little interested in why the OP thinks it's a critical failure in the game.

-O

I never said "game breaking" but the application of Vorpal and/or Gauntlets of Destruction across 2d weapons are unbalanced compared to 1d weapons. Period.

Just curious what makes you think the differences are so small?

So if its so imperceptible how come on the 1st page of the Vorpal crit thread you already had posts doing the "nudge nudge wink wink" routine about this combo.

 

[Obryn]

I never said "game breaking" but the application of Vorpal and/or Gauntlets of Destruction across 2d weapons are unbalanced compared to 1d weapons. Period.

Just curious what makes you think the differences are so small?

So if its so imperceptible how come on the 1st page of the Vorpal crit thread you already had posts doing the "nudge nudge wink wink" routine about this combo.

No, it's just that the falchion is pretty woefully underpowered compared to all other 2-handed weapons. It doesn't really surprise me that, when Vorpal, they actually turn out to have a use.

It's a small difference because ... well, you don't have vorpal weapons until high level, and even when you get them, the difference is very small compared to, say, a d12.

-O

 

[DemonLord57]

I never said "game breaking" but the application of Vorpal and/or Gauntlets of Destruction across 2d weapons are unbalanced compared to 1d weapons. Period.

Just curious what makes you think the differences are so small?

So if its so imperceptible how come on the 1st page of the Vorpal crit thread you already had posts doing the "nudge nudge wink wink" routine about this combo.

"nudge nudge wink wink" routine? I'm confused...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Tony I agree with much that you said except for the above. You're correct that 2d weapons perform on a bell as opposed to a fixed percent for 1d weapons. The difference isn't that meager when you're dealing with powers that deal 4+[W] damage.

The effect of vorpal, itself, is what I was characterizing as 'meager.' Increasing a die size - like the Rogue does with Shuriken, for instance - brings it up a full point, and is actually a bit more significant.

Yes, 2d weapons get twice the benefit, but, as you acknowleged, they're already statistically different from 1d weapons in other ways. If you go the other way, and penalize 2d weapons, they get only a fraction of the benefit. You're not getting parity either way. And, even among 1d weapons, you don't have parity by any measure.

It's just not the kind of mechanic where how balanced it is aplied to certain types of weapons is a big deal. Yes, you get the most bang in terms of average damage from a 2d4 weapon - if there was a 3d4 weapon, even better - but, even from those weapons, the effect of Vorpal isn't overpowering. On average, wielding a +6 vorpal falchion dishes out slightly less average damage than a +6 Maul. NBD.

I completely agree with you but you can also see that they may have meant "die/dice" when talking maximum damage and missed it in the editing.

Honeatly, no. 'Per die' seems like it should mean 'per die.' D&D has used per-die modifiers before, as did other old T$R games, and it's always meant 'per die.'

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

No, it's just that the falchion is pretty woefully underpowered compared to all other 2-handed weapons. It doesn't really surprise me that, when Vorpal, they actually turn out to have a use.

It's a small difference because ... well, you don't have vorpal weapons until high level, and even when you get them, the difference is very small compared to, say, a d12.

-O

Woefully underpowered how please? It's avg. damage is 5 compared to 5.5 for a d10 weapon or 6.5 d12 weapon. All brackets have their lowest/highest damage dealers, what's wrong with comparing it to a longsword also with a top end of 8.

 

[Jabba Von Hutt]

The effect of vorpal, itself, is what I was characterizing as 'meager.' Increasing a die size - like the Rogue does with Shuriken, for instance - brings it up a full point, and is actually a bit more significant.

Yes, 2d weapons get twice the benefit, but, as you acknowleged, they're already statistically different from 1d weapons in other ways. If you go the other way, and penalize 2d weapons, they get only a fraction of the benefit. You're not getting parity either way. And, even among 1d weapons, you don't have parity by any measure.

It's just not the kind of mechanic where how balanced it is aplied to certain types of weapons is a big deal. Yes, you get the most bang in terms of average damage from a 2d4 weapon - if there was a 3d4 weapon, even better - but, even from those weapons, the effect of Vorpal isn't overpowering. On average, wielding a +6 vorpal falchion dishes out slightly less average damage than a +6 Maul. NBD.


Honeatly, no. 'Per die' seems like it should mean 'per die.' D&D has used per-die modifiers before, as did other old T$R games, and it's always meant 'per die.'

Let's throw in the gauntlets to your test and assume a 4[W] power.

+6 Maul = 8d6 (2-6/die) = 4 avg/per * 8 + 6 = 38

+6 Vorpal Falchion = 8d4
2 rolls of "4" giving +2d4
2 rolls of "1"'s giving a 66% of +1d4 on rerolls
the 3d4 have a 99% of 1d4

So 8d4 just became 11-12d4 (2-4/die) 3 avg/per * 11.5 + 6 = 40.5

So the Vorpal falchion is now superior to the Maul. So a weapon that started out with a top end of "8" damage is better than a weapon that started with a top end of "12".

Couple of points. I don't really like comparing a non Vorpal to a Vorpal but since you used it I figured to go with it. Also you can probably give the maul a enhancement that gives it extra damage so it would probably do a bit more.