Vorpal Uber Weapons?!?

[silentounce]

I find it funny that, in all of these damage calculations, people are looking at the vorpalness of d4s and 2d6s when there are no weapons that can do Vorpal damage with those die sizes (dice sizes?).

Also, I can tell you definitively that Sneak Attack Dice are NOT rerolled with Vorpal...because Crossbows, Light Blades, and Shuriken can't have the Vorpal Property placed on them.

That said, reading this thread feels like banging my head between two walls.

I see lots of value in what both sides are saying.

Using plain English interpretations of words and common-sense die-rolling practices, the RAW appear to indicate that each individual piece of plastic is rerolled on a max number.

Using mathematical models of expected damage output and assumptions that 2-die weapons are exceptions to the single-die weapon rule (those exceptions being the game design theory behind 4ed) it seems that 2d4 counts as a single "die" of damage for a Falchion when it is part of the [W] damage the weapon is doing.

Strong arguments can and have been made either way.

Way 1 does give a decidedly bigger bonus to Falchions than Great-Axes, but not so big as to make the Falchion the best 2-hander ever and to obsolete the Great Axe.

Way 2 is hard to practically roll and enforce without lots of matched-set d4s.

I guess Way 1 is how most will run it, as it is table-top practical and I want strema-lined ease at my table (also a 4ed design goal); but I suspect Way 2 was the intent.

Good points.

Btw, I included the d4 and 2d6 for completeness. And as hyp just mentioned, 2d6 is a valid large weapon. Future supplements may also include small sized weapons, like a small handaxe that would do d4. I'm also houseruling small weapons for small characters, too. I've got a thread in the houserule's forum on it. So, it was relevant to me.

 

[Trebor62]

Dang it, I just wrote a wrong post that explained everything really well. And then it got messed up somehow. a;djfk;ladsjfj23rerwjfoiafj

Ok, let me try to recreate. I found an explanation that character maintains the relationship between all weapon die types as far as > and < at base, with GD, with Vorpal, and with both.

For weapon die entries like 2d4 or 2d6. You only explode on the highest possible result, max damage die, an 8 or a 12. With GD, you reroll each one rolled, but this only leads to explosion if the result is max. So for 2d4 with GD and Vorpal, you only explode if you roll (4,4), (1,4) and the 1 rerolls to a 4, or (1,1) and both reroll to 4s. If you take this interpretation, then all weapon die types are consistent as far as > or < except for two exceptions. When you use GD, the average result for 2d4 and d10 are identical, however d10 has a higher max damage.

But when you use GD and Vorpal, 2d4 and d10 are still identical, but there is no such thing as max damage. Although, it is less probable for 2d4 to result in a very high damage number than it is for a d10. With GD and vorpal, both types will explode 1/9 of the time if you only reroll on an 8 for the 2d4, but each time the d10 explodes it adds its new roll to 10 damage, while 2d4 adds to 8. Yeah, potential damage is infinite for both, but there is a greater probability for a high number of non-infinite damage for the d10. Take this for example. For 2d4, 72/81 of all rolls will result in 4-7 damage, 8/81 will result in 9-15 damage, and 1/81 will result in 16+ damage. For a d10, 72/81 of all rolls will result in 2-9 damage, 8/81 will result in 11-19 damage, and 1/81 will result in 21+. This can be extrapolated infinitely. So I don't really see a problem.

Damage probabilities for 2d4 and d10 with GD and Vorpal:
89%
2d4 4-7
d10 2-9

9.8%
2d4 9-15
d10 11-19

1.2%
2d4 16+
d10 21+

So, on average, these two types of weapon die will do the same damage, but it is more likely that the d10 will do a large amount.


FINAL TABLES:

Base average
d4 2.5
d6 3.5
d8 4.5
2d4 5
d10 5.5
d12 6.5
2d6 7

GD average
d4 3
d6 4
d8 5
2d4 6 rerolling all 1s
d10 6
d12 7
2d6 8 rerolling all 1s

Vorpal average
d4 3.33
d6 4.2
d8 5.14
2d4 5.33 rerolling only an 8
d10 6.11
d12 7.09
2d6 7.2 rerolling only a 12

Average with Vorpal and GD
d4 4.5
d6 5
d8 5.83
2d4 6.75 exploding only when a 8 is rolled on 2dice but rerolling all 1s
d10 6.75
d12 7.7
2d6 8.33 exploding only when 12 is rolled on 2dice but rerolling all 1s

So, there is an interpretation which actually maintains the progression both with and without vorpal. The progression is meaningful and can be maintained as I said above. Regardless of whether or not you like this interpretation or think it is correct, it is the only one that maintains the continuum of average damages for each case: d4<d6<d8<2d4<d10<d12<2d6. It is important to note that because 2d4 and 2d6 are considered a weapon die each set must be kept together when rolling multiple [W]s and they can only explode when an 8 or a 12 is rolled.

In summary, any and all 1s can be rerolled when using the GD, this does not break the weapon damage die progression. GD are not the problem. Rerolling every 4 or 6 when rolling 2d4 or 2d6 damage does break the progression both with Vorpal alone, and with Vorpal and GD. Rerolling 2d4 and 2d6 only when an 8 or a 12 results does not break the progression. Therefore, if you feel that this progression is an important system structure that needs to be maintained, the previous is the only rules interpretation that is valid.

What this is showing is that the Vorpal power is a deminishing power for the 2d? weapons when rerolling only on Max damage. Extend this out for 2d8, and 2d10 weapons and it should be appearant. These would be large, huge, and gargantuan weapons. Also look at the probablity that the Vorpal power would engage, 1 in 64 and 1 in 100, both are likely not even to occur in a typical battle. This is already showing in the 2d6 data, why would you spend 3125000 Gp for a enchatment that would raise your average damage .2 or less than 3%. This is less than one third the benifit of that a d12 weapon gains.


I have also thought of a simple solution for the GD problem and that is to not reroll any 1's due to Vorpal exploding die rolls and to not reroll any max die results due to GD rerolls. This would decouple the two powers and I think address a lot of the concerns.

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

Whatever the solution here, I think it should be consistent.

If we think the intent is that 2d4 is a single die, then GoD should reroll only if you roll a 2 for each pair of dice, and Vorpal should only explode when you hit 8.

However, if we think the intent is ease of play, the GoD should reroll if the individual dice come up 1s, and Vorpal should explode on each 4.

Way 1: Sucks for Vorpal Fachions and Glaives.

Way 2: Rocks very hard for Vorpal Falchions and Halbards. Too hard? I'm not sure.

 

[Trebor62]

Here's another option. Roll two different colored dice for the two die damage weapons but only reroll dice of one color for Vorpal damage. This would convert the Vorpal property for the two die weapons from a bell curve to a straight distrubution. Like wise this could also be done for the GoD.

 

[silentounce]

These are good fixes that people are coming up with. But that still doesn't solve the problem of how it is supposed to be done according to the rules.

 

[Tellerve]

PHB p219

"Damage: The weapon's damage die... If the weapon's damage die is an expression of multiple dice, roll that number of dice the indicated number of times. For example, a falchion (which has a damage die of 2d4) deals 8d4 damage when used with a power that deals 4[W] on a hit."

So, would appear that settles it, the falchion's damage die of 2d4.

EDIT: Drat, I took too long to write this up and people already found the same quote.

Tellerve

 

[silentounce]

PHB p219

"Damage: The weapon's damage die... If the weapon's damage die is an expression of multiple dice, roll that number of dice the indicated number of times. For example, a falchion (which has a damage die of 2d4) deals 8d4 damage when used with a power that deals 4[W] on a hit."

So, would appear that settles it, the falchion's damage die of 2d4.

EDIT: Drat, I took too long to write this up and people already found the same quote.

Tellerve

It took you several days to write that up? Or are you trying to make some kind of joke?