Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Steely Dan]

Forked from: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

Because I don't remember that being a complaint with regards to the barbarian rage, monk's stunning fist, etc. either.

Afterall, should the person playing the barbarian in 3e really have a problem suspending disbelief because of a daily limit? I wouldn't think so.[/quote]



Exactly, I’m surprised no one else has mentioned this. This really does prove that the people, who are against daily powers, seem to not realize that 3rd Ed had the same deal (rage, stunning fist, smite evil etc), so by default they should have a problem with immersion in 3rd Ed too.

As for me, the actual rules have very little to do with my immersion, as long as you have a descriptive DM and a good story, you should be fine,

 

[Cadfan]

I was always bugged by the gnome's ability to talk to burrowing animals- BUT ONLY A FEW TIMES PER DAY. Why? Was there some game breaking exploit the players could avail themselves to, if only they could talk to burrowing animals an unlimited number of times per day?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It actually was mentioned, and it was pointed out that 3.X wasn't perfect either. So the pot calls the kettle black...it just means that both are black.

But to elaborate and contrast:

1) Few of those abilities were actually 1/day. They were 1/day for low level PCs only, and that limitation could be overcome by advancing in a particular class or taking certain feats.

2) Rage being limited I can understand- it has a built in exhaustion mechanism. As the PC advances in levels/takes feats, he becomes more able to "work himself up" AFTER that initial phase of exhaustion.

Stunning Fist is less justifiable. Still, it requires a great amount of skill and concentration to land a stunning blow in RW martial arts, and like Rage, is limited not 1/day. Instead, its limited to 1/day per your PC & Monk levels- a reflection of increasing skill.

Smite Evil is purely supernatural, so I have no problem that its limited. Channeling your deity's power to do damage has to be stressful in a way that mere exertion probably isn't. But even so, the limit was based not on daily uses, but upon the PC's level, and there were feats that further boosted uses/day. As your PC leveled up, he could smite more often.

The Gnomish thing was completely blown. In earlier editions, it was merely a language skill. At worst, it should have been an at-will ability- its not like talking to burrowing animals whenever you wanted would be game breaking. Why this was changed in 3.X, I'll never understand.

3) By way of contrast, 4Ed non-reliable daily exploits have a hard cap of 1/day. The martial skill of the PC is irrelevant. The lack of skill of the target is irrelevant.

At this point, I'll concede that future 4Ed releases may have ways to go beyond this hard cap. That will at least match the 3.X mechanic allowing PCs to take feats like Extra Rage or Extra Stunning.

But it will still lag against 3.X in the area of daily abilities that gained uses as the PC leveled up.

 

[AtomicPope]

3) By way of contrast, 4Ed non-reliable daily exploits have a hard cap of 1/day. The martial skill of the PC is irrelevant. The lack of skill of the target is irrelevant.

At this point, I'll concede that future 4Ed releases may have ways to go beyond this hard cap. That will at least match the 3.X mechanic allowing PCs to take feats like Extra Rage or Extra Stunning.

But it will still lag against 3.X in the area of daily abilities that gained uses as the PC leveled up.

Disagree with the statement that the Skill of the Target and the Skill of the Attacker is irrelevant. In 4e 1/2 Level (skill) is applied to both attack and defenses. A high level (high skill) character will succeed more often against a low level (low skill) monster. In 1e, 2e, and 3e there was no inherent defensive skill. Everyone but Monks stood around like buffoons getting clubbed about the head and ears, occasionally returning the favor.

Disagree about lag. Neither Stunning Fist nor Rage can complete with the complexity or effectiveness of a Daily Power. A 20th Level Barbarian with Extra Rage is still a one trick pony - Rage+Power Attack. No amount of Extra Rage can change predictability. A 1st level character in 4e has more interesting and complex abilities than a 20th Level Barbarian. The only difference is the 4e label. They see 4e and cry foul.

 

[Toras]

Let me say first that while I agree things like defensive roll (which didn't come up, we tended towards the arcane trickster or assassin style rogue) and a few of the others are rather bad offenders. They bothered me only when they came up which was, and I cannot stress this enough, rarely.

A Barbarians Rage and to a lesser extent a monk's stunning fist could be explained within the system and within the game. They made the effort to explain it and brought in the exhaustion mechanic for one. The second is a matter of the semi-mystic (chi) power that a monk possess, not as much a matter of pummeling but imparting energy to disrupt his body. This is seen more in evidence in some of the take off feats from it. (Flaming Fists to say one).

The problem is not so much that these restrictions existed, though they were certainly more rare. It is the fact that no effort was made to explain them in an cohesive in game fashion. I could have accepted weapon damage or physical wounds as a consequence of pushing further (using dailies/encounters more than they are supposed to, or even allowing a feat tree to that affect). But really, I would have simply have made the Dailies slots gained rather than having them be specific powers, and then have the damage from the lower level powers scale appropriately. So that as you gain in level you gain more options as well as more power.

So that when you do gain new powers, they are simply competing for slots rather than taking the place of things you already no. Both of these would have been much more cohesive and if I should ever run 4e I will have to look into these changes.

 

[FireLance]

I think that part of the problem with 4e dailies is that they are so pervasive. Half the classes in the PH have the martial power source in the PH, and all of them have daily abilities, so even if 3e also had problems with martial daily abilities, they are now harder to ignore.

I personally think that the most important assumption that has to break down is that if it's martial, it must be repeatable. For example, one of the standard explanations for why a low-level barbarian is unable to rage more than once per day is that he somehow fatigues himself after his first rage, and is unable to reach the same state until he rests. He might get angry, but the emotion of anger is quite different from the mental and physical state of rage.

So similarly, in 4e, what if martial daily abilities represent such a supreme effort on the part of the character that he needs to rest before he can do it again? Perhaps certain muscles are overstrained, or he is fatigued in some way after he pulls off an exploit, so much so that he can't do exactly the same thing again until he has had some rest. He might attempt it, but his concentration, timing or balance will always be a little off, and in game terms, this could be represented by a lesser at-will or encounter ability (if he has an appropriate one available).

 

[AtomicPope]

Martial Exploits being performed 1/day is easy to explain - watch MMA. Some characters like Rumino Sato perfected the making it a 1/Encounter. Rumino Sato won a no gi tournament with all Flying Armbars.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw"]Flying Armbar [/ame]

Another example for Martial Encounter powers would be Miguel Cotto's left shovel hook. (Cotto is a demigod of Welterweights). Caution: This magnificent highlight contains Rap Music. Mute Speakers to disable.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MigmBs2GCuE"]left shovel hook[/ame]


Then there's Ryo Chonan who defeats the Pound-for-Pound MMA king Anderson Silva with a leg scissor to heel hook.At the time Bas Rutten was commentator for Pride and said, "Unbelievable! You only see that kind of thing in demonstrations." In other words, "it's a daily power that isn't reliable."
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267i7rKeECA"]leg scissor to heel hook[/ame]

There are Martial powers that are reliable Daily yet more strenuous than At Will. Take for instance Mirko Cro Cop's high kicks.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW7Cvr6LiJg"]high kicks[/ame]

The list of real world examples can go on forever to support limitations on Martial Exploits.

 

[lutecius]

Exactly, I’m surprised no one else has mentioned this. This really does prove that the people, who are against daily powers, seem to not realize that 3rd Ed had the same deal (rage, stunning fist, smite evil etc), so by default they should have a problem with immersion in 3rd Ed too.

As for me, the actual rules have very little to do with my immersion, as long as you have a descriptive DM and a good story, you should be fine,

What Dannyalcatraz said.

Also, those were exceptions (what are the "etc" btw?), not a core mechanism for every class. So they were easier to ignore.
I didn't even notice stunning fist because no one ever played a monk in my games.

Rage is also easier to envision as an exhaustible resource, separate from the barbarian's skills. It makes sense that you can't stay angry all day.

Smite evil is clearly supernatural. That doesn't mean i liked the "it's magic" explanation or even Vancian spellcasting. But it was still easier to accept that magic and the gods had their own quirky ways.

I expected 4e to reduce those things, not to multiply them.

 

[Shadeydm]

The list of real world examples can go on forever to support limitations on Martial Exploits.

To explain per encounter perhaps but 1/day, sorry no.

 

[FireLance]

To explain per encounter perhaps but 1/day, sorry no.

So how does the fatigue/overstrain approach work for you, then?