Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Hypersmurf]

An attack is very clearly defined by the PHB on page 270, and walls are attacks(by that definition).

Hmm. That's an interesting point.

Reading the description of "Attack" on p269, it says "When you attack, you make an attack roll", and it also says "All attacks follow the same basic process... 3. Make an attack roll."

Under Area Attack on p271, it says "When you make an area attack, you make a separate attack roll against each target in the area of effect."

All of this makes it sound as though an attack requires an attack roll, and if there's no attack roll, there's no attack.

However... one of the examples on p271 states "A magical wall of fog that springs from the ground to obscure a dungeon corridor is another example [of an area attack]".

Wall of Fog (Wizard Utility 6) has the Area keyword, and has the Effect keyword but not the Attack, Hit, or Miss keywords.

So does this mean that:
a/ the example is incorrect, and a magical wall of fog that springs from the ground to obscure a dungeon corridor is not, in fact, an example of an area attack?
or
b/ the example is correct; the Area keyword is sufficient to define a power as an area attack, despite it being a utility power that requires no attack roll, and all the references to attacks requiring attack rolls are general principles that don't necessarily apply to certain specific attacks?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

An attack power is a power that includes an attack, but can have other components.

Not all attack powers have the Attack line.

I'd phrase it as "An attack power is a power that may include an attack, but can have other components."

Of course, the Wall of Fog example has me perplexed.

-Hyp.

 

[silentounce]

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course, the Wall of Fog example has me perplexed.

Why?

All of this makes it sound as though an attack requires an attack roll, and if there's no attack roll, there's no attack.

Precisely.

That's the general rule of how attacks with the Attack keyword work. Attack keyword attacks require attack check rolls. That is the general rule of how all attacks work.

Wall of Fog is not an Attack keyword attack. It is an area effect obstacle creation (see page 56, no Attack keyword, no attack check roll). Page 271 does not apply to it and the example there is in error as an attack, it is merely an area effect. That entire section should not be labeled as Area Attacks, just Areas. Ditto for page 272.

Blade Barrier is not an Attack keyword attack. Neither of these have attack check rolls, hence, no Attack keyword. Ditto for Mass Cure Light Wounds.

But, an effect does not need an Attack keyword in order to affect creatures. Obstacles can affect creatures. Obstacles can damage creatures. Areas can heal allies.

Just because some Area Effects have the Attack keyword and hence an Attack check does not mean that all Area Effects have the Attack keyword. That general section about Area Attacks on page 271 seems to be ignoring this basic fact found in other places in the PHB.

 

[Zelc]

I solidly agree that ATTACKS are not the same thing as ATTACK POWERS in the same way that ROCKETS are not the same thing as ROCKET LAUNCHERS. Also, there is added confusion in that the word "attack" has two different meanings: one that is normal in colloquial English and one that is specifically defined in the PHB for D&D. There seems to be quite a bit of equivocation going on. You can attack (colloquial English version) someone with an attack power, but it doesn't have to be an attack (D&D version).

By the way, I'll add to the reductio ad absurdum with this. Suppose he's right, and "A missed attack never damages a minion." If an attack misses at least one target, it's a missed attack, since by his definitions of "attack" the whole power is an attack. That means that if you're trying to kill a minion, area powers are actually counterproductive because you'd have to hit every single target in the area in order to kill even one minion. Any miss and the minions won't die from your power. Since your chance of missing at least once goes up with the number of targets, you should generally only aim for one minion at a time.

 

[ryryguy]

SadisticFishing's position is that any power which contains an "Attack" line means that everything else in the power is also considered an "attack" and subject to the minion miss rules. Of course he has nothing really to support this contention, and it's pretty well demolished by the stuff about how to read a power that people have been posting - pretty much the first lines under "Attack", "Hit", "Miss", and "Effect" in the How to Read a Power section.

But this obviously become an idee fixee for him. The plain evidence of those definitions cannot get through.

The only thing I can offer that may not have been already said (who can tell in this crazy fog of a thread)... SadisticFishing has scoffed at the notion of a distinction between "attack power" and "attack" - "an attack power is an attack by definition". This is a definition he's made up, I guess because it has the word "attack" in it.

Check the very first entry under How To Read A Power, page 54. "Name and Level". "The first line of a power description gives the name of the power... [and] the kind of power it is (attack or utility)." Thus, the fact that Cloud of Daggers first line reads "Wizard Attack 1" means that "attack" is the kind of power. That is how the plain text of the PHB defines it. There is nothing in the text that defines "Cloud of Daggers", the power, as an "attack".

PS - I am also starting to read into the meaning of his screen name a little bit...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Page 271 does not apply to it and the example there is in error as an attack, it is merely an area effect.

That's a vote for option a, then?

-Hyp.

 

[Ginnel]

I solidly agree that ATTACKS are not the same thing as ATTACK POWERS in the same way that ROCKETS are not the same thing as ROCKET LAUNCHERS. Also, there is added confusion in that the word "attack" has two different meanings: one that is normal in colloquial English and one that is specifically defined in the PHB for D&D. There seems to be quite a bit of equivocation going on. You can attack (colloquial English version) someone with an attack power, but it doesn't have to be an attack (D&D version).

By the way, I'll add to the reductio ad absurdum with this. Suppose he's right, and "A missed attack never damages a minion." If an attack misses at least one target, it's a missed attack, since by his definitions of "attack" the whole power is an attack. That means that if you're trying to kill a minion, area powers are actually counterproductive because you'd have to hit every single target in the area in order to kill even one minion. Any miss and the minions won't die from your power. Since your chance of missing at least once goes up with the number of targets, you should generally only aim for one minion at a time.

I like this one and Andors

As described time and time again, an "attack" is just part of an "attack power"

lets give a basic example of english, brought to you using the letter a mostly.

basic attack is not in itself an attack, it is a power that lets you make an attack.
an attack bonus is not an attack, it is merely the name of something.
an attack power is not an attack it is merely the name of a power which includes something that lets you make an attack.
an oppurtunity attack is not an attack, it is just an action that allows you to use the basic attack power.

Now your assumption is the missed "attack" (from minion description) = missed "attack power" this isn't true.

Now after your missed "attack" which is given from the "attack power", the "attack power" has another line to it, an effect takes place a zone which damages any creature stood in it at the start of its turn or who moves into it.

I've tried hard to make this make sense, I hope it works.

 

[abyssaldeath]

The reason why most powers are called attack powers is because of utility powers. Utility powers can be daily, encounter or at-will. If they didn't make the distinction it would make choosing powers when you level very messy. The only powers that aren't called attack powers are utility powers. So the portion of a power that says "attack power" or "utility power" is only used for when you are picking your powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's a vote for option a, then?

Obviously.

b is not an option if one stays consistent with the rest of the rules (like page 56). It's an unintentional typo.

It's not that the editors at WotC are not careful in their reviews, it's that people like you and I and the rest of the forum community have years and years in which to focus on nearly every section of the books and analyze them to death. This is not the first "unintentional error" found, nor will it be the last.

No set of nearly 1000 pages of text will hold up completely in terms of consistency with that level of manpower and scrutiny.