Grading At-Will Powers
- Thread starter keterys
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Fedifensor
Explorer
I plan to take Psychic Lock ASAP for my high-AC human wizard build (who I plan to use as a secondary character in LFR). It really depends on your build and your goals. I don't think it is as rare as you feel it is, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
True, but it's still there, and it's one of only three solos that would threaten a level 30 party (or four if I go down to a lower level to get the Runescribed Dracolich), so it's worth noting. And there's no way I'm using Orcus as an example, when fighting him is a once in a lifetime encounter that requires special circumstances for the PCs to win.
I gave several other examples...there were only two level 30 creatures in the MM, and I used both. I'm not picking a ridiculous example when I use all the available creatures for that level as examples...and I also gave two examples for each of the other two tiers.
That's why my wizard chose Icy Terrain as his level 1 encounter power. Easier to hit multiple targets, has a controlling effect (prone), and can block foes due to the difficult terrain. I expect that it will be used every combat.
It gets down to play style. I see encounter powers as the big guns of an encounter, and I want the flexibility to use those big guns so I'm not stuck relying exclusively on at-will powers.
I think keterys and I are on the same page, here. Search room, search bodies, apply bandages, agree on where to go next...and you've just done a short rest.
My group would chase the enemies for a different reason...if reinforcements are warned, we're likely to be attacked in the next 5 minutes, which means we won't have time to apply bandages and do the other typical short rest activities. You don't take a break when you know you're about to be attacked. But that's a situation forced upon you by the circumstances, not a deliberate choice to press on.
Okay, you get points for mentioning CoH/CoV...even though I haven't been able to play at all since 4E was released, I've been a player since Beta.
And, I agree that this is fine for the most part in many circumstances.
I just find that if it happens every time, I'm playing a MMORPG.
It's the way 4E is designed.
1) The designers assume that dungeon doors are typically closed.
2) The designers assume that nearby encounters (i.e. monsters) are typically stone cold deaf. When I drop a fireball, every monster within this section of the dungeon should be alerted.
3) The designers assume that every PC wants to loot bodies immediately every time. No. I want to move on.
4) The designers assume that every PC wants to search areas immediately every time. No. I want to move on.
5) The designers assume that every PC wants to rest after each fight. No. I want to move on unless someone is seriously hurt.
6) The designers assume that every player wants to use up every Encounter Power in every single encounter.
Personally, I want to kick the snot out of every monster within range as fast as possible. Then come back and loot bodies and search walls.
That way, I know I am mostly safe when I get around to those tasks. Seriously, who is going to come along and steal the loot behind us most of the time?
Sure, I have no problem stopping if the group used up a lot of encounter powers and resources, or needs healing and wants to do so. But, I don't want to be doing this every single time.
That is no different then earlier editions where the Thief stopped to search every single wall and door and room and floor and ceiling time after time after time. Boring. Let's cut to the chase people.
The problem with the "Rest every time" mentality is that it assumes that all players want to play their PCs that way.
That's a poor assumption, but one which drills directly into the ruleset and one which is Pavlo Dog training the entire 4E DND gaming community that this is the one and only way the game should be played (and like Lemmings, the DND 4E community is going "yup, yup. that's the way to play DND"). If people do not use up all of their Encounter Power each encounter and do not rest between encounters, they are playing wrong.
Yikes!
And this is the key to the problem. This is not always the case. It is not always forced by circumstances.
Sometimes, people do just want to press on.
I don't want to give the monster in the next room over 5 minutes so that he can get his armor on.
I want to be a Navy Seals team: hit fast and hit hard, sort it all out later. Not the Bobbsey Twins on vacation strolling through the dungeon.
The game is designed to discourage this perfectly reasonable in character decision (which in 3E, was a perfectly reasonable in character decision and done quite often by some groups).
keterys
First Post
KarinsDad, as far as I can tell you're making some assumptions of the designers that aren't true.
One big thing that would help you understand is that you're intended to fight a whole section of dungeon at once, often enough.
That is to say, maybe the doors are open or closed, but when you fireball one section, you may draw everyone who can hear it. In one of my combats last night, the very first thing that happened is reinforcements got called in from the next two nearest rooms. They'd dealt with three rooms worth of stuff, found a magic item, and were actively looking for a ritual scroll to recover...
The encounter powers exist to be used almost every encounter. You can certainly press onwards, and you'll see that many of the wotc playtest reports they do so, but barring strings of easy encounters, you should need to catch your breath every now and then. Or just have a fair distance between encounters. Like not next door. Placing big encounter areas at least five minutes apart is an easy solution for letting people get their powers back
One big thing that would help you understand is that you're intended to fight a whole section of dungeon at once, often enough.
That is to say, maybe the doors are open or closed, but when you fireball one section, you may draw everyone who can hear it. In one of my combats last night, the very first thing that happened is reinforcements got called in from the next two nearest rooms. They'd dealt with three rooms worth of stuff, found a magic item, and were actively looking for a ritual scroll to recover...
The encounter powers exist to be used almost every encounter. You can certainly press onwards, and you'll see that many of the wotc playtest reports they do so, but barring strings of easy encounters, you should need to catch your breath every now and then. Or just have a fair distance between encounters. Like not next door. Placing big encounter areas at least five minutes apart is an easy solution for letting people get their powers back
Fedifensor
Explorer
Even Navy Seals need to reload their guns...
I disagree. If they wanted to discourage the refreshing of encounter powers, they wouldn't have made a short rest only take 5 minutes, with characters allowed to take as many short rests as they want. Now, daily power refreshes are discouraged, by only allowing one extended rest per 12 hours.
Yup. I seriously contemplated taking Icy Terrain. It was a real toss up.
I hear that.
Icy Terrain is just so weak damage-wise and the control aspect of it lasts for such a short period that it hardly seems worth the effort. At least in our games, melee enemies close real quick and a prone / difficult terrain combo doesn't do much to movement if it just knocks down an opponent who is already standing right next to the Defender. It does give the Defender a bonus to hit if he gets an action before the foe(s), but that assumes that the Defender does get an action before the foe(s) and that the Defender wants to attack that particular foe(s).
Against Ranged opponent, Icy Terrain merely damages them. The prone aspect does virtually nothing except give them a boost to AC from our ranged attacks.
If Icy Terrain just had a little more umph to it, then I would have taken it.
As is, none of the first level Wizard Encounter powers are impressive. None of them do serious control.
Fedifensor
Explorer
Icy Terrain shines in many situations, but the best use is when there's a chokepoint on the map that your Defenders are holding. If necessary, ready an action to use Icy Terrain right before your defenders act - that will ensure they take advantage of the enemies being prone. Likewise, if it is an issue, ranged PCs can hold their action to fire right after the enemy stands up.
The biggest thing Icy Terrain does, besides the damage, is keep melee foes from advancing on you in their next turn. Even after they take an action to stand, the difficult terrain keeps them from shifting, and slows their movement down enough so you've bought an extra turn from being engaged in melee. The damage, while only equivalent to Scorching Burst, hits multiple foes...and is more accurate than other powers if you have the Wintertouched feat.
Fortunately, the majority of foes are melee-oriented.
Help me understand???
Not according to KotS.
Not according to the DMG XP and encounter guidelines.
If the team uses up their per encounter resources for each single individual encounter in KotS and an entire section of the dungeon attacks them, they could be toast.
Sometimes, using an encounter (or daily) power can be overkill (e.g. like using it on a bloodied foe and taking him to -7, -2 is sufficient).
Who says that encounter powers exist to be used almost every encounter? They are designed to be used a maximum of once per encounter each, but nothing indicates that they exist to be used almost every encounter.
That's a design assumption on your part. And to me, one that sooner or later will bite the PCs if followed religiously.
To me, encounter powers exist to change the course of battle as required if possible. They are slightly more powerful powers as per PHB page 54. That is why you only get one of each. My design assumption here is different than yours.
In 3E, I always gave my players "big gun" magical items. For example, a Wand of 5D6 Fireball with 4 charges for 3rd level PCs. The reason is so that they could go to the well when they needed to do so. Empower the players to use up stronger limited resources.
That to me is the primary goal of the 4E Encounter and Daily powers (and not just the Daily powers). Go to the well powers, not use them up to help combat go quicker every time powers. Sure, do that sometimes when it seems appropriate. Just not: round 1, Encounter Power, round 2, Encounter Power, round 3, Encounter Power practically every time.
4E doesn't have as many magical items options in the go to the well area. Typically, it is only a few per day per PC.
The primary options they have are Per Encounter and Daily go to the well powers. If players use up their Encounter powers in every encounter, they shouldn't be surprised if they are suddenly forced to use up one or more Daily powers (or even TPKed) if they are suddenly faced with two or three back to back or simultaneous encounters.
Note: I have no problem with people using up Encounter powers in an encounter. It's often a good tactic. I have an issue with people thinking that using up all or most of their encounter powers every single encounter and resting between encounters is the only or preferable way to play.
I also agree that the team needs to catch their breath every once in a while. I have said that multiple times now. Rest when you need to is fine.
But, I don't want everyone on my team using up most or all of their encounter powers every single encounter and then demanding to rest every single time. I disagree that the team should do this. Teams who do that are metagaming. Again, IMO.
Or just have a fair distance between encounters. Like not next door. Placing big encounter areas at least five minutes apart is an easy solution for letting people get their powers back
So now, you are saying that instead of the players being Lemmings and conforming the PC actions to the recovery rules, the DM should be a Lemming and conform his dungeon design to the recovery rules.
