Did the WotC boards blow up...again?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Completely and totally disagree. I'd hate to see Morris' honest observations shut down by anybody on here.

If one couldn't say that WOTC forum performance "sucks" then frankly that person would not be speakingly honestly.

An overly aggressive tone increases the risk you are being ignored. It might work if you were sending your message to someone high-up, who is so remotely involved with the whole thing that he doesn't feel personally responsible for the errors, but feels personally responsible for relaying that information. But even then, the original message won't be well received.

It is not about logic or being right, it is about psychology. Morris should know that well, because he sometimes reacts a little to strong (in my opinion) on critic (how invalid or ignorant the criticism often is).

 

[Tao]

Completely and totally disagree. I'd hate to see Morris' honest observations shut down by anybody on here.

If one couldn't say that WOTC forum performance "sucks" then frankly that person would not be speakingly honestly.

You're well within your rights to disagree. However, as someone who is currently working for the company in question and who desperately wants the situation to be resolved, I am simply stating the obvious: Rational, well stated, and impartial complaints have more weight in the evaluation of a problem than impassioned but obviously biased complaints.

Wayne62682 said essentially the same thing as Morris, but if both were being evaluated by WotC, Wayne's assessment would likely hold more weight simply because it doesn't contain the off-topic tangential sniping that Morris had. The fact that Morris has specific and detailed experience end up being irrelevant if he can't express himself in an appropriate manner. They end up being even more irrelevant when he can't be bothered to express his concerns through the appropriate channels.

I am glad that the issue is being discussed. I am weighing in here in support of an open conversation about the problems and suggesting the most beneficial ways to express your concerns and make your voice matter. I genuinely hope that people DO use the customer service route to express any discontent you might have, since it will give WotC a measure of what kind of priority this should be (in cold hard numbers). If no one complains (or if those complaints are made where WotC doesn't see or count them), the assumption is that no one cares. So, if you care, show them you care. If you don't care... well... then why are you complaining to begin with.

 

[Nifft]

You're well within your rights to disagree. However, as someone who is currently working for the company in question and who desperately wants the situation to be resolved, I am simply stating the obvious: Rational, well stated, and impartial complaints have more weight in the evaluation of a problem than impassioned but obviously biased complaints.

So what? He's not telling WotC -- he's telling us. We are interested, and we are even entertained.

They end up being even more irrelevant when he can't be bothered to express his concerns through the appropriate channels.

Again, so what? Why do you think it is his responsibility to help them, rather than to inform us?

If no one complains (or if those complaints are made where WotC doesn't see or count them), the assumption is that no one cares.

Are you seriously saying that WotC thinks the recent downtime ratio is acceptable, and they won't know any better unless the people in this thread write them polite notes stating otherwise?

I'd be shocked if anyone were that myopic.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tao]

So what? He's not telling WotC -- he's telling us.

Audience is really irrelevant in this matter. He is speaking publicly as a representative of one company about the employees of another. When that is the case, there is a certain level of professionalism that should be maintained. If the ENWorld site were to go down for maintenance unexpectedly, I sincerely doubt that you would hear the WizOs or anyone else leveling insults at any of the staff here. I understand that WotC is a big, easy target... however, when you have a professional relationship with a company, you are held to a higher standard.

We are interested, and we are even entertained.

To feel envy is human, to savour schadenfreude is devilish. -Schopenhauer

Again, so what? Why do you think it is his responsibility to help them, rather than to inform us?

My assumption was that people were interested in the issue because they wanted it fixed. I hadn't realized that they were interested in it because they wanted to point and laugh. My mistake. Apparently I don't know my audience very well.

Are you seriously saying that WotC thinks the recent downtime ratio is acceptable, and they won't know any better unless the people in this thread write them polite notes stating otherwise?

I'd be shocked if anyone were that myopic.

You have a fairly optimistic appraisal of what WotC thinks of their message boards. Given my past experience, I would be willing to wager that most, if not all, of the executives holding the WotC purse strings really don't care if the forums are up or down or even exist at all. Personally, I think a little bit of constructive complaint would show the people at Wizards of the Coast the potential value of their web presence.

Again, that's just my take on things... but given my own experiences, its only a very small group that pays much attention to what is going on with the forums.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Wayne62682 said essentially the same thing as Morris, but if both were being evaluated by WotC, Wayne's assessment would likely hold more weight simply because it doesn't contain the off-topic tangential sniping that Morris had. The fact that Morris has specific and detailed experience end up being irrelevant if he can't express himself in an appropriate manner. They end up being even more irrelevant when he can't be bothered to express his concerns through the appropriate channels.

So basically you're saying WotC would prefer to ignore comments made by someone who knows what they're talking about, if they're not phrased politely enough, and rather would like to listen to someone who knows less but is more polite? That explains quite a lot.

 

[Nifft]

Audience is really irrelevant in this matter. He is speaking publicly as a representative of one company about the employees of another. When that is the case, there is a certain level of professionalism that should be maintained. If the ENWorld site were to go down for maintenance unexpectedly, I sincerely doubt that you would hear the WizOs or anyone else leveling insults at any of the staff here. I understand that WotC is a big, easy target... however, when you have a professional relationship with a company, you are held to a higher standard.

I didn't hear him announce he was speaking on behalf of EN World.

Are you currently speaking on behalf of WotC corporate?

My assumption was that people were interested in the issue because they wanted it fixed. I hadn't realized that they were interested in it because they wanted to point and laugh. My mistake. Apparently I don't know my audience very well.

You certainly don't, not if you think that level of sophistry will score points.

You have a fairly optimistic appraisal of what WotC thinks of their message boards. Given my past experience, I would be willing to wager that most, if not all, of the executives holding the WotC purse strings really don't care if the forums are up or down or even exist at all. Personally, I think a little bit of constructive complaint would show the people at Wizards of the Coast the potential value of their web presence.

Again, that's just my take on things... but given my own experiences, its only a very small group that pays much attention to what is going on with the forums.

What happened to the WotC who wanted to sell web presence? Have they abandoned the very idea of the DDI / Gleemax / whatever it is?

I'd miss the CharOpt board.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tao]

So basically you're saying WotC would prefer to ignore comments made by someone who knows what they're talking about, if they're not phrased politely enough, and rather would like to listen to someone who knows less but is more polite? That explains quite a lot.

I am sure that you never react more favorably to people who aren't calling you "morons", and that you give a calm and rational evaluation to people who are insulting you. Most people, however, tend to respond better to respectful, well-reasoned statements than they do to insults. This isn't an insight into WotC's business strategy. This is the basic psychology of social dynamics that holds true across every strata of human interaction.

I am genuinely surprised that there are so many people who seem taken aback by this statement. ::shrug::

I didn't hear him announce he was speaking on behalf of EN World.

Are you currently speaking on behalf of WotC corporate?

Nope, but I've also been careful to preface my statements with "in my opinion" and "I can't speak for the rest of the company". I don't have any kind of special designation that labels me as a representative of WotC on this board. Morris is, however, clearly labeled as a representative of ENWorld.

Additionally, I have tried to offer constructive targeted criticisms at specific issues, along with possible solutions and recommendations. I admit, that I was a bit defensive at times, but I feel that I have steered clear of any personal or professional attacks.

You certainly don't, not if you think that level of sophistry will score points.

You seem to be making it fairly clear that you don't have any interest in contributing to any kind of solution. You seem more anxious to shoot the messenger than to take anything beneficial out of what I might be saying. If that is not the case, then I apologize.

What happened to the WotC who wanted to sell web presence? Have they abandoned the very idea of the DDI / Gleemax / whatever it is?

No, but in light of these issues they seem to be more than willing to throw the forums under the bus to get there. DDI & Gleemax != the forums. One of the reasons that WotC has openly given for the recent issues is the fact that resources were pulled to work on DDI/Gleemax/Magic Online.

I'd miss the CharOpt board.

It seems as though we may actually agree on something. Maybe. I'm not entirely certain as to whether or not you are being sarcastic.

 

[Delta]

So, if you care, show them you care. If you don't care... well... then why are you complaining to begin with.

Since this was in a reply to me, I'll challenge you to show any post from me where I was "complaining". I was solely an observer of this thread until you criticized Morris' methodology.


Look, clearly you've had a nerve touched because (from what you say) you work at WOTC. But this site is not a WOTC site. It's not dedicated to WOTC employees or customers. It's not a WOTC customer service site, nor is it dedicated to crafting messages to WOTC corporate.

As a former senior software engineer at 3 different computer game companies, I know that some people can have a hard time seeing the unvarnished truth about your company aired in public. Yeah, that can be tough. But I'm not a WOTC customer and, if truth be told, I hope they don't fix the problem (so as to open opportunities for independent third-parties).

As a professional in the industry, I'm most interested in learning exactly where on the ladder of gaming-based digital services WOTC currently stands. And if Morris thinks they're at the level of "sucks", then please, that's exactly what I want to hear and the most concise way for me to hear it.

This site isn't WOTC and I would hate for WOTC employees to get to dictate the terms of conversation here. Sometimes the truth hurts, but making up reasons to lash out against the message-bearer won't win you any points.

 

[Bump2daWiza]

I am sure that you never react more favorably to people who aren't calling you "morons", and that you give a calm and rational evaluation to people who are insulting you. Most people, however, tend to respond better to respectful, well-reasoned statements than they do to insults. This isn't an insight into WotC's business strategy. This is the basic psychology of social dynamics that holds true across every strata of human interaction.

We are obviously talking about 2 different things here: professionalism and customer service. I honestly don't know how Morrus should be conducting himself, since I know little about the gaming industry and how people interact with one another. I can say that I did not personally think he was out of line. Sure he is a competitor, but rivals bad mouth one another all the time (particularly public rivals such as TV personalities).

Customer service is something that I know about. I was raised in a family of sales men, and have worked for some time in the publishing industry. It may be that people generally respond better to those who are polite, complimentary, moderate etc. But a succesful company or business person has to learn to overlook these things. What matters is the essence of the person's concern. Also, if someone is being emotional, that is a sign that you need to pick up on. They may be crossing a line in the language they are using, but it could arise out of frustration. If your customers are frustrated and angry you have a problem. It is very ill advised to in business to only listen to your happy customers.

I for one can understand why Morrus would be a little frustrated and even poke a little fun at wizards. They just don't know how to do PR. Their boards are painfully broken. I can't tell you how many times I couldn't get on this month. The D&DI fiasco has not been handled all that well. In fact their handling of it, has only inflamed people. When people complained about 4E books smudging or falling apart they issued a statement indicating it was a result of readers' drinking habits and poor hygeine (I know this is an exxageration, but honestly how stupid does a company have to be to let something like that--which could be interpreted as such as statement-- come out) Don't get me wrong, I like wizards, but they do need to work on a few areas.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I am sure that you never react more favorably to people who aren't calling you "morons", and that you give a calm and rational evaluation to people who are insulting you. Most people, however, tend to respond better to respectful, well-reasoned statements than they do to insults. This isn't an insight into WotC's business strategy. This is the basic psychology of social dynamics that holds true across every strata of human interaction.

I am genuinely surprised that there are so many people who seem taken aback by this statement. ::shrug::

I think you, in turn would be extremely surprised by how many people find your condescending tone and manner considerably more offensive than being called "morons". Your posts illustrate perfectly how "calm" and "rational" can simultaneously be "insulting" and anything but "respectful". People respond better to be treated as adults, I agree, but the irony of you calling out Morrus on being "insulting" is not insignificant.

I mean, if you're going to claim you're not being condescending, you might want to reconsider saying things like this:

This is the basic psychology of social dynamics that holds true across every strata of human interaction.

I am genuinely surprised that there are so many people who seem taken aback by this statement. ::shrug::

Which is pretty close to a textbook example of condescending behaviour.