Invisible Paladin

[Runestar]

To summarize: if you want to offer yourself as a target, there needs to be a bulleye painted in red on your chest. For all to see. Otherwise, you're not offering yourself as a target.

I disagree. This would likely be the case if you lacked the ability to mark, since you would then want to present yourself as a viable threat, comparable to a more fragile target such as the party wizard or rogue, and the 3e fighter's largest shortcoming.

But now that you have caught the foe's attention and know that he now has reason to want to attack you (or risk suffering the penalties from divine challenge), it certainly makes sense to me that now is as good a time as any to make yourself as hard to hit as possible.

I personally feel that divine challenge is there simply to let defenders do their job by giving monsters a credible reason to want to attack them over anyone else (normally, between a PC with high AC and tons of hp and another PC with lower AC and less hp, the choice is obvious). Presenting themselves as a big honking target is one way (and possibly the most common because that would be the most obvious way to build a paladin PC), but certainly not the only way. I believe that divine challenge was deliberately worded the way it was exactly to allow just enough wriggle room for alternative paladin concepts (which is likely why the paladin code was not reprinted), such as an elven bow sniper, and so that you did not have to be pigeon-holed into the role of meatshield.

For instance, it is possible to build an elven cleric archer that is best decribed as a striker/healer/buffer hybrid. Is it that hard to admit that a striker/defender version of the paladin may well be a viable character concept?

 

[Branduil]

It seems likely if a Paladin archer was intended to be possible they would have been given proficiency with bows and powers that actually work at a range.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

If you attack a square and the invisible paladin is in that square, he is one of the targets of your attack. So, no damage. Think of it as an area attack that is one square in size.

If you choose a square that the paladin is not in, then you are not attacking the paladin and you take damage.

 

[ki11erDM]

Special: Even though this ability is called a challenge, it doesn’t rely on the intelligence or language ability of the target. It’s a magical compulsion that affects the creature’s behavior, regardless of the creature’s nature.

A much more interesting question to me is: does this clause override invisibility? It is a magic compulsion. Can’t that mean the monster always knows what square it needs to attack to attack the paladin?

If this ever happens in a game I am DMing the monster affected by DC will know what square the paladin is in, will still have the miss chance and such but the monster will magically know what square he should attack.

 

[smallkiwi]

That is a reasonable and intelligent interpretation of the RAW taking all factors into account. I like it, and will suggest it to my DM if the situation ever arises. That seems kind of unlikely though

 

[Branduil]

A much more interesting question to me is: does this clause override invisibility? It is a magic compulsion. Can’t that mean the monster always knows what square it needs to attack to attack the paladin?

If this ever happens in a game I am DMing the monster affected by DC will know what square the paladin is in, will still have the miss chance and such but the monster will magically know what square he should attack.

Interesting point.

 

[Tale]

Ahh, this thread makes me wish I were DM'ing a game. There's really two solutions.

1) Go by a complete RAW interpretation so that the player feels he's done something clever.
2) Recognize that it's not that clever after the first time it's used or heard of. It's, at best, unjustifiable for why it should not be house-ruled out. At worst, a blatant unintended exploit.


I would aim for 2, but if the player begs for 1, I'd give it as a caveat that I get to use it until the Paladin gets annoyed by it. Suddenly, Evil Paladins with longbows EVERYWHERE!

 

[Mort_Q]

Suddenly, Evil Paladins with longbows EVERYWHERE!

Monsters with greater charging abilities, teleport, immobilizing immediate interrupts...

... oh the joy of being the DM.

 

[Kobu]

A much more interesting question to me is: does this clause override invisibility? It is a magic compulsion. Can’t that mean the monster always knows what square it needs to attack to attack the paladin?

No, the point of that is to explain why a beetle would accept a divine challenge. It doesn't confer any special ability beyond understanding the nature of the challenge.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Wow, there are some twisted versions of Divine Challenge out there. There's nothing wrong with using Divine Challenge and then running. It's far less effective then actually standing and fighting. Making up all this extra fluff about having to stand your ground is a little silly. The idea of the Divine Challenge is actually to make it so the marked target takes damage and a penalty when attacking people besides the paladin who marked it. There is no implied " we shall dance the MELEE dance of death, you and I".

Being marked with divine challenge only does damage if the target attacks something else. So for the paladin on top of a cliff example, the enemy just walks away.

Anyway, attacking the square the paladin is in includes the paladin as a target as far as I read it because if the attack hits, it will hit the paladin. If the creature fails its perception check to find the paladin it can play the gambling game of picking a square or it can choose not to do so, and take other non attack actions.

RAI, I would count trust the DM to run the monster appropriately and any attacks it made should be with the intent to either take DC damage, or not depending on if the monster was trying to thit the paladin or not.