Explain INT and Reflex, Please

[Doctor Futurity]

I guess I see it like this:

Villain shoots Big Bad Fireball at PCs.

The quick guy looks up, sees an exploding fireball, and ducks to safety.

The smart guy looked over, recognized that the villain was casting a Big Bad Fireball spell, and ducks for safety in anticipation of what was to come.

If the quick guy had been smarter than he was quick....then his instinctive speed would have been overtaken by his keen intellect. And vice versa.

Just my rationalization....

 

[bardolph]

Can anyone come up with a reasonable-sounding explanation for why a stat (Intelligence) that "describes how well your character learns and reasons," and which primarily benefits wizards that spend all of their time in their heads would prevent a big, powerful brute from clubbing you over the head and killing you (AC)?

Easy. The high-INT wizard spent more time studying game theory and table-top miniature wargames, and has manipulated the probabilities to his advantage.

 

[mneme]

I don't have a huge problem with it -- the Int guy has strategy and tactics, and knows when to duck.

That said -- if I were doing it from first principles, I'd probably do:

Str, Con: Fort defense. Strong body = Strong Body
Dex, Wis: Ref defense -- Wis is having good instincts and senses and knowing when to dodge, Dex is being so fast that it doesn't matter.
Int, Cha: Will defense -- Int is having trained your mind so well that no mere mind-flayer can stun you, Cha is having enough force-of-personality to out presence them.

 

[LittleElvis]

When it comes to something like a Fireball or other magical spell, I can understand a WIZ benefitting from INT.

But against ranged melee? Not as easily.

And against basic melee combat? Not at all, really.

 

[theNater]

I'd be tempted as a GM to only let DEX add to your Reflex/AC. Then make the wizards a little more powerful. Like give them more spell options, or a static +1 or +2 to hit.

What I love here is the implicit assumption that only wizards are using int for their AC and ref. As if warlords and warlocks didn't use int, and no clerics, fighters, or paladins prefer to be smart rather than fast.

Hi-larious.

 

[Tony Vargas]

DEX to AC/REF reacts.
INT to AC/REF anticipates.

And, yes, it's funny no one's considering the Warlord. Tactical Warlords get a pretty decent REF save, between having INT as a secondary stat that probably gets boosted through thier career near as much as STR, and getting a shield. Some may even do as well for AC wearing Hide as Chain. And, it certainly makes sense for them.

 

[LittleElvis]

What I love here is the implicit assumption that only wizards are using int for their AC and ref. As if warlords and warlocks didn't use int, and no clerics, fighters, or paladins prefer to be smart rather than fast.

Hi-larious.

Cheers!

It mainly defies fantasy common sense with Wizards, though, and they are the most likely to really benefit dramatically from that really high INT, and to have such a dramatically high INT in the first place. The part that does bug me a bit is that if you create a 20 INT Staff Wizard with leather proficiency at first level, you've got an 18 AC.

Which is pretty silly IMO. A 1st-level wizard with an AC better than a first-level 2H-fighter, and he's a better spellcaster for that 20 INT too. It works in the game, so whatever, but it's at or near the top of the list of things that doesn't make sense about 4e.

It doesn't mean it makes more sense with Warlocks or Warlords, though, granted.

So now guys who are really weak, frail, and clumsy but got really good grades in school are at a defensive advantage in melee over guys who are really strong, tough, and nimble.

Hi-larious.

 

[theNater]

It mainly defies fantasy common sense with Wizards, though, and they are the most likely to really benefit dramatically from that really high INT, and to have such a dramatically high INT in the first place. The part that does bug me a bit is that if you create a 20 INT Staff Wizard with leather proficiency at first level, you've got an 18 AC.

I've often seen a wizard, sometimes even a frail-looking one, block a mighty sword blow with his staff, usually resulting in a shower of sparks. Often it's done with great speed, but occasionally it's done with a sort of casual grace, lending credence to the "I knew where the attack was going to come from before you started your swing" school of thought.

Which is pretty silly IMO. A 1st-level wizard with an AC better than a first-level 2H-fighter, and he's a better spellcaster for that 20 INT too. It works in the game, so whatever, but it's at or near the top of the list of things that doesn't make sense about 4e.

I don't find it particularly odd that a wizard who specializes in defense can beat the AC of a fighter who specializes in offense. The fact that the wizard gets benefits other than AC from his high int is fairly well balanced by the fact that the fighter doesn't need to spend any ability score points to get his AC.

It doesn't mean it makes more sense with Warlocks or Warlords, though, granted.

Or any less, of course.

So now guys who are really weak, frail, and clumsy but got really good grades in school are at a defensive advantage in melee over guys who are really strong, tough, and nimble.

You've got a few problems here. Firstly, unless they've rolled their scores and gotten very unlucky, there aren't any characters who are really weak, frail, and clumsy. Using point buy, they're going to be average or better in at least two of those qualities.

Secondly, intelligence and grades in school are not as strongly related as many people think. Intelligent people can recall relevant information swiftly and accurately, and can draw connections and reach correct conclusions quickly. These are both useful qualities to have in a fight, but the speed involved is only sometimes helpful for school grades.

And finally, higher AC is not the same as better defended. Hit points and healing surges need to factor into that calculation as well, and a strong, tough fighter will be have significantly more of both than a weak, frail wizard. The wizard might be on an equal defensive footing, but he won't be at a significant advantage, barring unusual incoming attacks.

Hi-larious.

I know! I'm totally cracking up over here!

 

[Draz]

I think "INT to AC and Reflex" makes more sense than STR to Fortitude vs. things like poisons. Explain that one to me.

The only reason STR to Fortitude isn't completely ridiculous is because Fortitude, in 4e, is now also used for things like resisting being pushed or grappled.

 

[Eldorian]

I'd say that most examples aren't really examples of intelligence as much as they are either quick thinking or observational and analytical skills. I guess you could say that's a part of "Intelligence" as it relates to the game, but it's not a part of what intelligence is in real life.

Huh?

Good decision making skills, observational skills, and analytical skills aren't intelligence?

In D&D Intelligence is learning, reasoning, and logic. It's how quickly you can use information. In real life, Intelligence is heavily based off the usage of and amount of knowledge. This is handled in the game by skills and proficiencies.

Double huh?

Education is intelligence?


A quick wiki, which agrees with the scientific definition as far as I remember, is

Intelligence (also called intellect) is an umbrella term used to describe a property of the mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, to plan, to solve problems, to think abstractly, to comprehend ideas, to use language, and to learn.

This is also the common usage definition, at least I thought it was until I read those posts and no one going, "huh" besides me.

Why does DnD Int add to AC and Reflex? Because there is a problem, "I am about to get hit by something," and if there is a solution, Int is how you find it.