Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[FadedC]

If by "concede" you mean "couldn't be bothered to respond to someone who thinks wizards have the same AC, HPs and healing surges as paladins and won't believe otherwise" then sure.

Ah yes.....you claimed that wizard ac was 8 points less then any defender, called everyone stupid who disagreed and then backed down when math was shown and you were challenged to defend your point. I'm sure that wasn't a concession. Never mind that nobody claimed that wizards had the same ac, hp and healing surges.

God, more antagonistic nonsense from you, wonderful. I actually posted "before initiative came up", which means surprise + round, but it should be pretty obvious that it can be done. Ogres deal 9, 16 hits is 144 damage without any buffing, ample damage to kill a level 14 wizard. Fiends at 7 damage do 112, enough to kill a typical wizard, more than enough to guarantee dying. I know multiplying two numbers together is pretty hard to do which is why you needed me to do the math. .

Yes, I'm the antogonistic one, not the guy ignoring mod requests that he stop posting here because he's clearly just here to fight. So let's look at those ogres. Why don't you calculate the odds of getting 16 hits in a row against a 16th level wizard with level apropriate magic items (hint...if you pull it off, enter the lottery). Not to mention the fact that being limited to a partial action on a surprise round usually keeps the ogres from surrounding one target and still attacking.

The level 1 kobolds are actually more of a threat, 64 damage in two rounds is going to kill any level 1 wizard. So minions become less of a threat at higher levels while at the same time being easier to kill in large numbers making them even more of an XP gimmie.

I don't disagree with you that level 1 kobolds are more of a threat. Though they will miss a 20 int wizard in leather significantly more often then they hit.

 

[Switchback]

What fact?

Do Legion Devils exist or not in your world? They have unique lore and a place in the world, so I don’t see why they wouldn’t. If they do, then minions exist outside of combat. We can use semantics and not call them 'minions' outside of player combat, we can call them weak demons or whatever, but that does not change they are real creatures in the game world.

And? At that point the Legion Devil is essentially a non-combat NPC to be interrogated by the PCs and not an encounter. The same as if you run into a goblin at a bar and he buys you a drink(well, not quite the same, but close enough).

We are not talking about a NPC situation. We are talking about a combat situation where the PC’s have decided to kill this creature that would naturally fight back if you tried to kill it. It is no different than if the PC’s caught a standard Orc or Gnoll. And just like a Orc or Gnoll, we have stats for a Legion Devil. It takes 1 hit to kill it in combat.

I have no idea why people have such difficulty grasping this. Minions are entirely as real as any other monster. The only thing abstract about them is that they have 1 HP when they encounter players in combat. Otherwise they are normal monsters in every way.

At other times in the game world when Minions are not being hit by characters, they are still out there going about their lives like other monsters, performing their roles in monster society or whatever. The only difference is at these times, their hit points abstract to something more than 1, but still much less than standard creatures they may be related to. Because they are not standard creatures. They are weaker monsters. This is the reason the devs wanted to give them a low number of real value hit points. Only they did not for bookkeeping reasons. But when not interacting with players they might be expected to actually have some small low level HP for the purposes of the DM figuring out various results.

But once combat begins with players, we have rules to deal with them. And it does nothing for the game to at that point try and guess what those low value hit points would have been. It's pointless if your trying to kill that solo Legion Devil to guess that its HP may have been 25. It's not going to significantly change the encounter in any way. Same as the Kobold Minion you might have chased into the building and found 10 minutes later. It will die in one hit, for the sake of minion consistency.

 

[Goumindong]

Do Legion Devils exist or not in your world? They have unique lore and a place in the world, so I don’t see why they wouldn’t. If they do, then minions exist outside of combat.

Yes Legion Devils exist. No, minions do not exist outside of combat. Minions are constructs for PCs to interact with. They exist however the DM wants them to outside of combat with PCs. Such "minions" only exist in combat with PCs" because outside of combat with PC's they exist exactly as the DM wants them to, all such interactions being NPC vs NPC.

We are not talking about a NPC situation. We are talking about a combat situation where the PC’s have decided to kill this creature that would naturally fight back if you tried to kill it. It is no different than if the PC’s caught a standard Orc or Gnoll. And just like a Orc or Gnoll, we have stats for a Legion Devil. It takes 1 hit to kill it in combat.

O.K. so your DM throws you up against a lone minion[something he shold not be doing](and you can choose not to kill it if you wish). And you kill it. And you're complaining why? How is it any different from the DM throwing any other level inappropriate encounter at you?

At other times in the game world when Minions are not being hit by characters, they are still out there going about their lives like other monsters, performing their roles in monster society or whatever. The only difference is at these times, their hit points abstract to something more than 1, but still much less than standard creatures they may be related to. Becuase they are not standard creatures. They are weaker monsters. This is the reason they wanted to give them a low number of real value hit points. Only they did not for bookkeeping reasons. But when not interacting with players they can be expected to actually have these low level HP.

O.K. so if you agree with me, why are you disagreeing? You're being entirely inconsistent with your argument(that or you have finally realized we are right)

 

[Goumindong]

No. Gandalf isn't a true wizard. He is a lesser angel sent by greater angels that is over a 1000 years old. No mortal wizard could match him.

I'm thinking the DnD wizard is closer to the types of wizards you would find in a Conan novel or a book like Tigana. Less focused on martial power and more focused wizardly power.

I don't know if you have read Lord of the Rings but Gandalf was stronger than Boromir or Aragorn. I mean physically stronger by a gigantic margin. So Gandalf is a very bad example of a melee wizard. Gandalf could not be defeated by a mortal wizard.

Whether or not LotR fits within DnD classes, Gandalf is the iconic wizard.

 

[Switchback]

O.K. so if you agree with me, why are you disagreeing? You're being entirely inconsistent with your argument(that or you have finally realized we are right)

I don't know what you think you were ever disagreeing with me about. I responded to Lurker initially who was using the idea that just because it is not wise for a DM to make players encounter solo minions (its not) that they are somehow turned into 'normal' or standard monsters when not dealing with players. They are not. Because Minions are not a template that goes over other types of monsters.

If you look over a campsite of Kobolds, players should be able to clearly see Kobolds wearing robes (or maybe shamanistic attire) who are Wyrmpriests, Kobolds with shields and armor that are Dragonshields, and runty, cowardly Kobolds, probably being shunned by their betters, who are Kobold Minions.

They should not by contrast just see "a bunch of kobolds" who the DM then decides which ones to turn into minions when a combat starts. That is not understanding their value and place as unique monsters.

If one's definition of a minion turns on it having 1 HP in combat, then I can see where they would be confused with mine. Because my definition of a minion is any creature in the MM that has 'Minion' as its role. But them having 1 HP in combat is just one aspect of their nature. It is not their entire purpose to the game world.

 

[GoLu]

Whether or not LotR fits within DnD classes, Gandalf is the iconic wizard.

Not Harry Potter? Then why does D&D have wands? Huh?

(I kid, I kid...)

 

[FadedC]

I don't know what you think you were ever disagreeing with me about. I responded to Lurker initially who was using the idea that just because it is not wise for a DM to make players encounter solo minions (its not) that they are somehow turned into 'normal' or standard monsters when not dealing with players. They are not. Because Minions are not a template that goes over other types of monsters.

If you look over a campsite of Kobolds, players should be able to clearly see Kobolds wearing robes (or maybe shamanistic attire) who are Wyrmpriests, Kobolds with shields and armor that are Dragonshields, and runty, cowardly Kobolds, probably being shunned by their betters, who are Kobold Minions.

They should not by contrast just see "a bunch of kobolds" who the DM then decides which ones to turn into minions when a combat starts. That is not understanding their value and place as unique monsters.

If one's definition of a minion turns on it having 1 HP in combat, then I can see where they would be confused with mine. Because my definition of a minion is any creature in the MM that has 'Minion' as its role. But them having 1 HP in combat is just one aspect of their nature. It is not their entire purpose to the game world.

While I mostly agree with you, it's worth noting that at least according to the minion design article, it is reasonable for monsters to change between minions and non minions as the party levels. For example when you fight the ogre tribe of the broken skull at level 8, they are regular 8th level ogres. If you go back at lvl 16 to fight them, it's reasonable for the DM to turn them into 16th level minions, with maybe some non minions for their leaders. This allows the players to feel suitably more powerful then the ogres, without the fight becoming overly pointless.

 

[Switchback]

While I mostly agree with you, it's worth noting that at least according to the minion design article, it is reasonable for monsters to change between minions and non minions as the party levels.

Yeah, I find that entirely reasonable. If its 10 levels later and the party comes back into the area, its probably so far removed from importance that you just make them minions now.

It would be less realistic (and wrong IMO) if it happened within an adventure, where a DM should generally speaking, clearly know which creatures are minions or not. For example, if the PC's somehow split off a group of Ogre minions that were running between slave pits, they should remain minions for the consistency of the story he has built and for the reliability of observable information that the players might be gathering. I.e. "We have learned that the weaker Ogre bludgeoneers work in the slave mines" etc.

 

[Celtavian]

It's not inconceivable for an epic tier wizard to be adding a bigger number to strength checks than heroic or even paragon tier fighters, just because of the 1/2 level bonus.

And remember, at epic tier we're talking about people that are on their way to becomming demigods (or already are demigods and are on their way to becomming gods; I'm not totally clear on that), or are at least comparable in power to those proto-gods. In any case, saying that Gandalf is way more powerful than a D&D wizard because he's a lesser angel doesn't fly when high level D&D wizards can be demigods that are significantly more powerful than some of the lesser angels in the MM.

If you're trying to tell me that Dnd wizard's melee combat ability compares to Gandalf then I don't know what to tell you. I disagree. Gandalf is nothing like a Dnd character and the current game could only simulate him by allowing an odd base race.

Please don't bring up strange elements in the rule system like a strength checked based on level when the same wizard with a lvl 10 strength at lvl 30 is still only going to be able to lift 200 lbs while the 20 plus str fighter is going to be able to life 400 lbs or more. As in the fighter is twice as strong as the wizard, but for some reason the wizard is able to make higher strength checks.

All you did was point out a nonsensical rule that I don't even want to think about because it utterly ruins suspension of disbelief. Why would you point out a rule that is ridiculous if you take the time to think about it?

Seriously.

lvl 10 fighter with 20 str lifts 400 lbs.

lvl 30 wiz with 10 str lifts 200 lbs.

Lvl 30 wiz gets +15 on str checks. Lvl 10 ftr gets +10 even though he is twice as strong.

Thanks for pointing out another illogical rule that is mainly there for mechanical effciency.

No, Gandalf isn't well-simulated by DnD. I don't bother to think about Dnd, especially 4th edition, as a close to good simulation of fantasy characters such as Gandalf. It is a very bad simulation. DnD wizards are nothing like Gandalf. The melee system they use is based entirely on the idea of mechanical efficiency. So your example doesn't fly. A DnD wizard is not Gandalf. It's a DnD wizard. It would take a great deal of work by a DM to create an analogue in 4th edition for Gandalf. It wouldn't even be worth trying.

 

[Celtavian]

Whether or not LotR fits within DnD classes, Gandalf is the iconic wizard.

Whether or not LotR fits within DnD classes, Gandalf is the iconic wizard.

I don't think he is the iconic wizard for DnD. I think Gygax drew from different sources for his idea of wizards. Were Gandalf the Iconic wizard for DnD as you claim, then I think the wizard class would be very different.

Not to say that Gandalf isn't an influence, but I very much enjoy the Lord of the Rings books, and have played many Dnd Wizards, and have never felt like Gandalf or even close.

To me a DnD wizard is its own animal. At some point in time I have to get around to reading some Jack Vance Dying Earth novels to see what inspired the DnD wizard.