Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Syrsuro]

Not Harry Potter? Then why does D&D have wands? Huh?

(I kid, I kid...)

I thought it was Mickey Mouse from the Sorcerer's Apprentice.

Besides - Gandalf was clearly an Eladrin Wizard ....

Carl

 

[DM_Blake]

The characters would have to be intergalactically stupid to not be able to figure out after their billionth fight that they pretty often have a large groups of opponents who consistently die at the drop of a hat. Minions are a fact of life for the 4E character, it makes perfect sense that they'll exploit it.

"Oh look, we're outnumbered again, the sensible thing would be to run."
"Nah, thats why we brought the wizard alone."
"Foosh."
"Oh yeah, just like every other fight. Now it's 5 on 3, CHARGE!"

This is probably not true.

Looking at the real world, do you think Jack the Ripper thought it was odd how everyone he attacked with a knife died when he first ran that knife across their windpipe?

Do you think that John Wilkes Booth was surprised when a single bullet dropped Abraham Lincoln in his tracks?

How about the countless soldiers in countless wars all across this planet who have hit an enemy with an axe, sword, arrow, bullet, etc., and seen that enemy fall dead from that single wound?

Was any of that odd? Unusual?

Weapons are meant to be destructive. They are designed (most of them, anyway) to kill their target when they are imployed successfully against that target.

Wielders of those weapons expect to see results. They expect to see their enemies fall before their attacks.

Now, D&D provides that kind of scenario across all levels. Minions. These minions die when they get hit weapons (or other attacks like spells, etc.). This is what everyone expects to happen.

But, sometimes, we fight something or someone and we swing our sword, fire our arrow, cast our spell, and the target ducks or dodges or twists away, causing our attack to land just a relatively harmless flesh wound that doesn't kill the target.

These guys are represented in D&D as the non-minion monsters who have HP. Their HP represents their ability to evade the lethal intent of some of our attacks, turning what could and should be a 1-shot kill into a battle that takes many shots to bring down this difficult foe.

That's the difference between minions and non-minions.

 

[Switchback]

That's the difference between minions and non-minions.

The way the Monster Manual gives minions separate ecology in some cases though is an indication that minion status is not something that is differentiated between monsters just because of combat luck or bad luck, or even something the heroes did heroically.

The reason a Legion Devil dies in 1 hit is because its much weaker than a Pit Fiend or Bearded Devil.

Just like in 3e filler died because the filler might have been a 2nd level Ghoul that was much weaker than the 10th level undead in the place the Ghouls were inhabiting as 'Mooks'.

So 4e is telling us more that if Jack the Ripper stabbed someone, they died or not based more on what they already were before he chose them and not because he got lucky and hit the windpipe.

 

[DM_Blake]

And that is part of my problem with them. Players are well aware when they are fighting a group of minions and will deal with them accordingly.

I am more of the opinion that this shouldn't be the case.

The minions don't know they're minions, so why should the players know?

Two ogres are sitting side-by-side in a cave, one is a minion and the other is not. As far as they are concerned they are very much the same. When they go marauding through the human lands, laying waste to farmhouses and livestock, neither of them is slain by the first prick from a farmer's pitchfork, neither of them is slain by a barnyard mouser scratching them with a claw. Neither is slain by tripping over a fallen beam and hitting his head on the ground.

They stomp and bash and slay farmers and livestock and come home with full bellies.

Then along come the PCs. They stand outside the caves and shout challenges and taunts to the ogres, who in turn go running out of their cave to bash these silly fools.

The first ogre runs out and the ranger fires an arrow (he rolls a 15, a hit!). Zing, right through the ogre's eye, bursting out the back of his skull as brains and blood go flying. The ogres falls, dead before he hits the ground.

The second ogre runs out and the ranger fires another arrow (they were far enough away that the ogre didn't reach them in a single round - he rolls another 15, a hit!). The ogre sees the attack in time to snap his head to the side and the arrow just grazes along the ogre's skull, drawing a little blood and making the ogre even more angry.

What was the difference? One ogre wasn't alert enough to duck, the other one was.

Which ogre didn't duck? The minion, of course.

But, until those two arrow hits, nobody, not the PCs, not the marauded farmers, not the other ogres living in a cave next door, not even the two ogres themselves, knew that one of them was a minion.

Even after the fact, nobody knows one ogre was a minion. Sure, the DM knows it, and the players inevitably figure it out. But the characters don't know it. After the fight, they congratulate the ranger on that lucky shot that took the ogre right in the eye and dropped him instantly. They laugh about the ogre that was too stupid to duck.

But they never imagine in a million years that the ogre mysteriously had about the same HP as a hamster.

Because truth be told, the ogre wasn't that weak, ever, at any time in its entire life, except right at that moment that the arrow struck him.

 

[Switchback]

Because truth be told, the ogre wasn't that weak, ever, at any time in its entire life, except right at that moment that the arrow struck him.

Yes he was weaker.

The difference between a Vampire Spawn (a minion) and a Vampire Lord is not cosmetic. They are not interchangeable. Neither in combat or in the lore of the world. A Vampire Spawn is a once living humanoid that has been blood drained by a Vampire Lord. Vampire Lords are much more powerful immortal undead, that would never be confused with a spawn. The difference between them is *not* decided by the arrow shot by a PC. They have separate ecology in the world, and so do even weaker minions like Kobold Minions in relation to Dragonshields.

Think of a bar scene in one of those Steven Seagal movies where he beats the crap out of everyone there on his way up to the villain on the other side. None of those ‘thugs’ are a challenge or even threat to him, no matter how many times he fights them. They are not going down in one punch or kick because he got lucky, or critical hit them , but because they are weak and nothing compared against the skill of Steven. He is always going to bend their arm backward and break it and make them scream, “You *)$#, you broke my arm!” Because he is just that awesome and they are just that pathetic.

It’s the same idea with Minions in 4e. Kobold Minions die in droves to PC’s because they are nothing to the heroes. They are peons even among their own kind. Just like the thugs in the bar in the movie are peons that are probably ordered and beat up earlier in the movie by the main bad dude or his right hand man, in order to foreshadow their own threat level.

Now eventually Seagal comes up against the fat bodyguard or the muscled henchman that protects the villain and he gets a real fight, and this is the same as PC’s coming up against the Brutes or Soldiers or real threats in an encounter. Those foes are never going to be one-shotted, because they are the bigger kahunas not just in the battle, but in the larger game world itself. It’s a pecking order.

 

[DM_Blake]

The way the Monster Manual gives minions separate ecology in some cases though is an indication that minion status is not something that is differentiated between monsters just because of combat luck or bad luck, or even something the heroes did heroically.

The reason a Legion Devil dies in 1 hit is because its much weaker than a Pit Fiend or Bearded Devil.

Just like in 3e filler died because the filler might have been a 2nd level Ghoul that was much weaker than the 10th level undead in the place the Ghouls were inhabiting as 'Mooks'.

So 4e is telling us more that if Jack the Ripper stabbed someone, they died or not based more on what they already were before he chose them and not because he got lucky and hit the windpipe.

Sure, you could look at it that way.

Or you could look at it like the Monster Manual has specific entries to tell the DM "pick this guy when you want a monster, pick that guy when you want a minion".

Which may or may not be the best way to do things.

But if you look at it like minions are just as real as the other (similar) non-minion critters they hang out with, and only happen to be minions when that fatal lucky shot takes them more-or-less unaware and kills them outright, and assume the Monster Manual simply lists them separately to make them easy to find and use on the spot, then minions make more sense.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Man, I'm really disappointed with how badly this thread has gone to crap.

 

[DM_Blake]

Man, I'm really disappointed with how badly this thread has gone to crap.

And your criticism adds value?

If you're disappointed in the thread, then leave the thread, or improve the thread, but don't just make non-contributional comments about your disappointment - that doesn't help anyone.

And no, I don't think this post of mine adds any value, unless ValhallaGH and others like him are swayed by my impassioned appeal to their better judgment and henceforth take their disappointment elsewhere or make a serious effort to steer the thread into something less disappointing.

 

[Switchback]

But if you look at it like minions are just as real as the other (similar) non-minion critters they hang out with, and only happen to be minions when that fatal lucky shot takes them more-or-less unaware and kills them outright, and assume the Monster Manual simply lists them separately to make them easy to find and use on the spot, then minions make more sense.

If they wanted you to do that though, they could have easily let you pick any standard monster stat package, give him 1 HP and 10% of the experience to make one a minion no?

But they would not have made creatures like the Legion Devils at all who are all minions and have no ‘standard’ version, if they expected you to simply let the skill of an arrow shot determine what is a minion or not.

If its more interesting to run your game that way, that’s fine. But I don’t see how it could be said that is the way the devs expect players to understand minions. So far they have encouraged players to play up the differences and we already know about the knowledge checks that can further shed light on monster types.

 

[Goumindong]

I don't know what you think you were ever disagreeing with me about. I responded to Lurker initially who was using the idea that just because it is not wise for a DM to make players encounter solo minions (its not) that they are somehow turned into 'normal' or standard monsters when not dealing with players. They are not. Because Minions are not a template that goes over other types of monsters.

No he is right, they are just like normal monsters when not dealing with players. Why? Because no monsters have any stats when not dealing with players. Nothing has stats, there is no conflict resolution, the entire thing is run by DM fiat. All of the stats blocks are irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. Who wins is decided by the DM. Who hits and does damage is decided by the DM. In a combat with NPC's, PC's and minions a NPC that hits a minion might not kill it. Why? Because there is no necessary combat resolution.

Think of a bar scene in one of those Steven Seagal movies where he beats the crap out of everyone there on his way up to the villain on the other side. None of those ‘thugs’ are a challenge or even threat to him, no matter how many times he fights them. They are not going down in one punch or kick because he got lucky, or critical hit them , but because they are weak and nothing compared against the skill of Steven. He is always going to bend their arm backward and break it and make them scream, “You *)$#, you broke my arm!” Because he is just that awesome and they are just that pathetic.

It’s the same idea with Minions in 4e. Kobold Minions die in droves to PC’s because they are nothing to the heroes. They are peons even among their own kind. Just like the thugs in the bar in the movie are peons that are probably ordered and beat up earlier in the movie by the main bad dude or his right hand man, in order to foreshadow their own threat level.

You're right. And how do those minions interact with friendly NPCs? They interact as if they were any other monster, they capture the friendly NPCs and hold trains hostage. Even when the friendly NPC's are fighting with the PC the NPCs still don't treat the minions as minions.

Now, thematically minions are definitely separate from the big kahuna's. They may or may not be separate in terms of looks. That determination is up to the DM for how he wants the encounter to turn out.