Taking a Break

[Raven Crowking]

I think it is important to take into account, too, that when some folks were playing 3e, they suggested that certain problems existed that needed repair. Then they started the process of repairing them. There was a whole series of "Sense of Wonder" threads where I suggested that 3.x had certain problems -- including too much prep time, for instance -- about which I was told these problems were, essentially, all in my head. Suddenly, though, 75-80% of my "Sense of Wonder" complaints are true, and obvious, and obvious to the same folks who previously claimed they were patently false.

Now, of course, these same people are making these same complaints about 3e, and claiming that any problems with 4e are all in my (and others') collective head.

It's frustrating.

On top of that, the move to 4E forces 4E fans to make a change and a choice: Change from a popular game that suited their preferences, to a choice between a (perhaps) popular game that (perhaps) suits their play style and a (perhaps) unpopular game that (suddenly) no longer suits their style.

A 4E fan is looking at a questionable future - considering the unpopularity of the GSL and many of WotC's current moves/policies/fiascos, will the game that they are changing to be popular a year from now? Two? Three?

Unless 4E fans "prove" that 3E is an inferior game and "destroy" its popularity...work already started by WotC in the build-up to 4e. Hence the reaction of 3E fans when people trash their game. They have to fight these accusations in fear that some people believe it and drop 3E.

See? Works both ways.

The problem, IMHO, is that trashing 3e is currently popular, and trashing 4e isn't yet, because it's bright, shiny, and new. Some folks don't like 4e, and make threads to discuss the same, which are threadcrapped by folks who do like 4e. Meanwhile, some folks want to talk about the new thing they are exploring and enjoying, and those threads are threadcrapped by folks who don't like 4e. IME, the first type of threadcrapping is going on a lot more than the second, but then that could just be because of the threads I'm reading.

I think we just have to accept (1) it's okay to like 4e, (2) it's okay to dislike 4e, (3) it's okay to like 3e, (4) it's okay to dislike 3e, etc., and get on with discussing the things we have in common.

If we start making threads to talk about edition-neutral things, maybe it'll catch on.

Of course, as Grimstaff said, "To add to my consternation, I even find myself getting drawn into this negativity and posting stuff I regret."

Case in point.


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

[INSERT RAGE ABOUT UNAVAILABLE ENWORLD SEVER WHILE WRITING A LONG POST HERE]

I think it is important to take into account, too, that when some folks were playing 3e, they suggested that certain problems existed that needed repair. Then they started the process of repairing them. There was a whole series of "Sense of Wonder" threads where I suggested that 3.x had certain problems -- including too much prep time, for instance -- about which I was told these problems were, essentially, all in my head. Suddenly, though, 75-80% of my "Sense of Wonder" complaints are true, and obvious, and obvious to the same folks who previously claimed they were patently false.

Now, of course, these same people are making these same complaints about 3e, and claiming that any problems with 4e are all in my (and others') collective head.

It's frustrating.

Well, maybe it was ignored because there was also a lot of "background noise" or just wrong critic. The "Monk is overpowered" debates were common at the start. I don't know if you fell into the same trap or not (I don't remember that many details from the first 3E years, and I started playing some months after the initial release), but if such errors happened, it is no surprise that valid concerns also ended up being ignored. If people don't analyze flaws and merits of a system in detail, they are bound to miss critical detail and distinguish between valid and invalid critic.

On top of that, the move to 4E forces 4E fans to make a change and a choice: Change from a popular game that suited their preferences, to a choice between a (perhaps) popular game that (perhaps) suits their play style and a (perhaps) unpopular game that (suddenly) no longer suits their style.

A 4E fan is looking at a questionable future - considering the unpopularity of the GSL and many of WotC's current moves/policies/fiascos, will the game that they are changing to be popular a year from now? Two? Three?

Unless 4E fans "prove" that 3E is an inferior game and "destroy" its popularity...work already started by WotC in the build-up to 4e. Hence the reaction of 3E fans when people trash their game. They have to fight these accusations in fear that some people believe it and drop 3E.

See? Works both ways.

Well, didn't I even say that in my post?

The problem, IMHO, is that trashing 3e is currently popular, and trashing 4e isn't yet, because it's bright, shiny, and new. Some folks don't like 4e, and make threads to discuss the same, which are threadcrapped by folks who do like 4e. Meanwhile, some folks want to talk about the new thing they are exploring and enjoying, and those threads are threadcrapped by folks who don't like 4e. IME, the first type of threadcrapping is going on a lot more than the second, but then that could just be because of the threads I'm reading.

The whole "trashing" thing is what makes rational discussions so hard. It always force people into the defensive and only look for ways to defend themselves against perceived attacks.

I think we just have to accept (1) it's okay to like 4e, (2) it's okay to dislike 4e, (3) it's okay to like 3e, (4) it's okay to dislike 3e, etc., and get on with discussing the things we have in common.

Yes. But I think it's also important to note see only in this "dislike/like" black-white pattern. There is also "I like it for X, but think Y could be better".

If someone says "Mechanic X in 4E is flawed! Hahah - you bought an inferior game system!" how can I even argue rationally here?
It might be that mechanic X is flawed, but it doesn't follow the system is inferior or nothing has improved. There are other things that were fixed, and they might be of enough merit to make me prefer 4E about 3E, even if I still have to cope with some flaws.

If we start making threads to talk about edition-neutral things, maybe it'll catch on.

Maybe. But I think we also should discuss the individual systems flaws & merits and how we can learn from them. But maybe this is not yet the time, if we still devolve into edition wars?

Of course, as Grimstaff said, "To add to my consternation, I even find myself getting drawn into this negativity and posting stuff I regret."

Case in point.

RC

Seeing myself dragged into edition wars is not a good thing.

 

[Treebore]

Overall I've enjoyed this community. It's full of insightful gamers and a lot of free, original content. It's been a nice place to come and talk about and help improve my hobby.

But the focus seems to have shifted in the past 9-12 months. The attitude seems to have shifted away from the (generally) positive and much closer to the (generally) negative. People are more interested in talking about what they don't like instead of what they do. This is a real shame, because I considered ENWorld one of the few havens where the mods and community worked together to create a pleasant environment of discourse. I'm not saying people should not discuss their negative opinions. But lately it seems these discussion degenerate into roundabout arguments and childish namecalling. It's gotten to the point where I feel that I cannot discuss what I like, because it seems likely that, like a pack of roving wolves, detractors will descend upon my thoughts and rip them to shreds.

It's gotten to the point where I look at my games of preference and ask "Am I doing something wrong? Is my game of choice really that bad?" I've considered taking a long break from the hobby, maybe even leaving it entirely. Of course I eventually realize that this is ludicrous, and that I am allowed to like whichever games I please. But it's like getting kicked in the shin every day; there's no real damage at, but it still stings, is demoralizing as hell, and can eventually, can cause some real problems.

So I've come to the conclusion that the best thing for me to do is simply to back off, and maybe bow out entirely. Which is a shame, because I was looking forward to taking advantage of the new blog feature, posting some new content I've been working on, and even become a supporter. But I can't do any of these things if I always come away from this place feeling down and questioning all of my game-related decisions.

I'm not a founding member. I don't have an absurdly high post count. I often don't get to threads until they're well under way. I don't have an awesome story hour. I don't grace anyone's signature. I'm not gaming with any of the mods. In short, I'm a pretty average member, and generally go unnoticed around here. I'm sure the snarky "who cares, thanks for sharing" reply is inevitable. But I think it's important that I voice my opinion, because maybe someone who can take action will notice. We'll see.

Anyway, thanks for reading. I'm sure I'll still poke around here from to time, probably keep an eye on this thread in particular. There are still Story Hours and other things I enjoy. But I have to avoid most of this place to stay positive about my hobby, and that's what really disappoints me. So, I'll see ya when I see ya!

The reason this board seems so negative is because the "positive people" leave.

Over all there seems to be only about 6 people who will rain on a thread, and its not always the same people.

The way I handle it is refuse to argue, ignore the mean posts, and only respond to the ones trying to be friendly and open minded. I don't always succeed, but its what I try to do.

So try and stick around and strengthen the positives about ENWorld. Don't let the "dark side" win.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes. But I think it's also important to note see only in this "dislike/like" black-white pattern. There is also "I like it for X, but think Y could be better".

Agreed. When it was announced that 4e would be OGL and Necromancer Games was going to produce an "old school" version, I actually had some anticipation for it. The only "real flaw" in 4e, IMHO, is that the language of the GSL restricts the "flavours" that the game can come in. Necromancer-flavoured 4e would probably have hooked me. Hence, anything that might encourage WotC/Hasbro to rethink the GSL approach is good, IMHO.

Maybe. But I think we also should discuss the individual systems flaws & merits and how we can learn from them. But maybe this is not yet the time, if we still devolve into edition wars?

Well, if you look at 3e, the most productive thread are by those who bought into the overall system, but didn't necessarily love all of the subsystems or flavour so much that they couldn't reimagine it. I expect the same is going to be true of 4e. What I suspect will be really interesting are fan-based mergers of the two systems. 3e does have problems, and 4e has offered some solutions to those problems. Even if you don't want to buy into 4e entirely, you might want to steal from it. And even if you are switching to 4e, you might want to convert things from 3e (or earlier editions).

The assertations of diaglo aside, I very much doubt that there is (or ever will be) "one true game".


RC

 

[Jasperak]

Considered yourself quoted in a sig.

I agree with the OP; I wish there was more maturity on the board. It seems like both sides have missionaries that act like pre-teens. No offense to any pre-teens that don't act like jerks.

Anyway I think to heck with 3e & 4e; I'm going to go play C&C or OD&D (maybe BXCMI).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I think part of the problem is a lot of bitterness is creeping up in both 4e fans and people who dislike 4e. I speak for more then myself, but a lot of people who dislike 4e are getting very tired, very fast, of seeing any criticism of 4e shot down, flamed, bludgeoned, and then reported for "attempting to start a system war." Meanwhile, as someone else said, it's INCREDIBLY in style to beat 3e with a large mallet, and yet - strangely enough - I never see those same reports for "attempting to start a system war." Even a completely positive review of 4e with two or three small nitpicks will have those nitpicks dissected over the course of five pages in an attempt to point out why they're wrong, and why 4e is flawless.

The problem with the "system wars" moderation is that there is no moderation outside of locked threads - which, ironically, is what most of the trolls wanted in the first place. People are going out of their way to cause problems, and they're being rewarded for it. That's why everyone is getting negative - those that spread the negativity simply keep doing so, and those that aren't get tired and withdraw.

 

[Fifth Element]

Meanwhile, as someone else said, it's INCREDIBLY in style to beat 3e with a large mallet, and yet - strangely enough - I never see those same reports for "attempting to start a system war."

Oh, I've seen them. I've seen several posters on both "sides" defend their preferred systems rabidly, while decrying the other. I've seen warnings issued to both "sides". (Yes, I insist on putting "sides" in " " every time.)

It seems to me both "sides" also suffer from a bit of a persecution complex, both claiming that the other "side" has worse offenders than they do, and that they never get called on it. There are a number of asshats out there; they are not exclusive to any one edition of D&D.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Oh, I've seen them. I've seen several posters on both "sides" defend their preferred systems rabidly, while decrying the other. I've seen warnings issued to both "sides". (Yes, I insist on putting "sides" in " " every time.)

It seems to me both "sides" also suffer from a bit of a persecution complex, both claiming that the other "side" has worse offenders than they do, and that they never get called on it. There are a number of asshats out there; they are not exclusive to any one edition of D&D.

Agreed on the asshats on both sides. Admittingly, as one of the people who dislike 4e, I acknowledge that I can, do, and will notice the asshats on the opposite side far more then I would notice them on this side. I still notice a few of them though - idiots and trolls are definately not limited to one fandom.

 

[rounser]

Unless 4E/3E fans "prove" that 4E/3E is an inferior game and "destroy" its popularity...

I don't think that far ahead. For me, I'm just a bit peeved about some of what's been done with the game's flavour, and wanted to express some incredulity about it.

So no ulterior motive from me (or if there is one, I'm unaware of it). The die has been cast, the horse has bolted, the balrog is in the woodpile (and it's snacking on a half-eaten "dragonborn warlord", whatever the heck that is).

All this talk of "new Coke" is just wishful thinking that WOTC is going to recant - and IMO it's unrealistic to expect that to happen.

 

[Branduil]

Criticism of any game system should be allowed. Of course, if you're going to use undefined "negative" terms like videogame-y, WOW-like, unfun, etc., without explanation that will inevitably cause problems.