Sleep, Circle of Death, and related spells.

[Wulf Ratbane]

This is a question about spells that affect a certain number of HD of creatures. I'll use Sleep but it applies equally to Circle of Death, and possibly others.

Let's say the wizard casts Sleep at a big mob of orcs, 3 squares x 3 squares full. There is no question that all nine of these orcs are within the area of effect.

XXX
XXX
XXX

Now... when you resolve the effects of the spell, do you:

A) Roll all nine of the orcs saves, then put to sleep the four (4HD) of those that failed, starting with those closest to the point of origin;

or

B) Designate the four orcs (4HD) closest to the point of origin, then roll their saves.

We have always done it one way, since the beginning of 3e, and I think most folks do it the same way we do. However, I am curious if anyone knows of a specific rule, FAQ, or otherwise that makes it explicit which is the correct way.

 

[Starbuck_II]

This is a question about spells that affect a certain number of HD of creatures. I'll use Sleep but it applies equally to Circle of Death, and possibly others.

Let's say the wizard casts Sleep at a big mob of orcs, 3 squares x 3 squares full. There is no question that all nine of these orcs are within the area of effect.

XXX
XXX
XXX

Now... when you resolve the effects of the spell, do you:

A) Roll all nine of the orcs saves, then put to sleep the four (4HD) of those that failed, starting with those closest to the point of origin;

or

B) Designate the four orcs (4HD) closest to the point of origin, then roll their saves.

We have always done it one way, since the beginning of 3e, and I think most folks do it the same way we do. However, I am curious if anyone knows of a specific rule, FAQ, or otherwise that makes it explicit which is the correct way.

I read it as a, but it has been a few months since I played 3.5.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This is a question about spells that affect a certain number of HD of creatures. I'll use Sleep but it applies equally to Circle of Death, and possibly others.

I'll use Hypnotic Pattern, because it contains a key word we can use to adjudicate Hypnotic Pattern, and generalise from there to cover similar spells.

"Roll 2d4 and add your caster level (maximum 10) to determine the total number of Hit Dice of creatures affected. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; and, among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Affected creatures become fascinated by the pattern of colors."

Let's say I roll a total of 9 on my 2d4+x. Thus, I know that the total number of Hit Dice affected is 9.

First, the DM rolls a saving throw for an orc near the point of origin of the spell. The orc saves; the save negates; the orc is not fascinated by the pattern of colours. Since he is not fascinated by the pattern of colours, he is not an "affected creature"; thus, the orc's hit dice do not count towards the total of hit dice affected.

Next, the DM calls for a spell penetration check vs the drow in the spell's area. The check fails; per the text of Spell Resistance, "If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature". So we know that the spell doesn't affect the drow; we also know, since the drow is not fascinated by the pattern of colours, that the drow is not an "affected creature". For both of these reasons, the drow's hit dice are not hit dice affected, and don't count towards the total.

There are still 9 hit dice of spell available for affecting, so we move on to the next creature...

So for Hypnotic Pattern, due to the "Affected creatures do X" language, we know that creatures who save to negate the effect are not counted towards the total; by extension, we can assume the same holds for Sleep and Circle of Death.

-Hyp.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hyp, I agree with you. I also think there's language in the Magic overview (re: Area, re: Targets) to support this interpretation.

But for the record, I'm betting the majority of people use "B."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, I agree with you. I also think there's language in the Magic overview (re: Area, re: Targets) to support this interpretation.

Hmm... can you be more specific?

-Hyp.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Hmm... can you be more specific?

-Hyp.

I've done some snipping from here.

After RANGE and before DURATION, you will find this:

AIMING A SPELL

You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

<snip>

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. <snip>

Note that Sleep and Circle of Death both specify an area of effect, not targets.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

A.

It never occurred to me to do it any other way. The mage picks the target square, the DM rolls nearest to farthest for saves until enough fail or he runs out of targets.

If the PC were supposed to be able to pick and choose specific creatures, it wouldn't be an area-effect spell, it would say X targets up to Y hit dice total.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Basically A), though I'd proceed pretty much as Hyp says - I wouldn't roll all nine saves, I'd roll saves starting closest to caster, and keep going till I hit the HD limit.

 

[Tilenas]

It's B.
The Area entry indicates who is affected by the spell.
Now, what does affected mean?
Answer: It determines who has to roll a saving throw. If the sleep spell affects 4 HD worth of creatures, it's the lowest HD creature + second to lowest HD creature +... until you can't fit anymore targets within these 4 HD. If all those creatures make their save, it's tough luck for you.
Affected does not mean that you roll saves for everyone in the radius and stop once 4 HD worth of creatures have failed their saves. I take this interpretation (as in opion A) as being inconsistent with the magic rules, as the saving throw is normally made after all spell parameters have been set (the save is a means of determining the outcome of the spell). To let the outcome modify the parameters is just weird.
However, houseruling it so that affected refers to all creatures who failed their save is alright, but beware that this makes this type of spell considerably more powerful.
For the sleep spell, it means that up to 12 creatures will have to make a save. The chance to take out a certain number of HD is much greater than preselecting the creatures affected and rolling saves for them only.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It's B.

I used to think that.

The chance to take out a certain number of HD is much greater than preselecting the creatures affected and rolling saves for them only.

Sure. Obviously so.

But you need to compare such spells to other area of effect spells.

When you cast a Fireball, it's assumed that everything in the area must make a save, but there is otherwise no limit to what targets inside the area can be affected. The effect is unlimited.

When you cast Deep Slumber (also 3rd level), everything in the area must make a save, but the actual effect of the spell is capped at 10 HD, even if more creatures are inside the area. The effect is limited.

Is it more powerful than the way you have been doing it? Certainly so. Is it out of line with respect to other spells of its level? No.

I'm convinced that is the correct interpretation though-- as I said-- I've been using 'B' forever.