The 15 min. adventuring day... does 4e solve it?

[Vocenoctum]

To be fair, though, as 3e went on many pre-published adventures (and notably the Paizo adventure paths) tended to abandon the 'correct' pacing of encounters in favour of fewer, tougher encounters (indeed, I believe one of the Design & Development articles mention that this was the case - that the expectation of 13 encounters per level had shifted to be more like 10 or even 8).

Well, my point was that the DM controled the pace. If you wanted 2 big encounters in a day, you could adjust for it. If you wanted them to clear out a small keep (say, 12 encounters) than you needed to prepare for them resting, or lower the enemies strength to compensate. It's not unbreakable or anything, but the system was there.

And, if that really bothers you, you could always just replace the 'replace expended spells with 8 hours rest' with 'replace expended spells after an hour's rest' and go from there. Since it's bound to be little more than a handwave most of the time, does it really matter which handwave you use?

Sure, it just depends on the story the DM wanted to set. If he wanted them to rest, or not. How long he wanted them to rest... where they could rest, et cetera.

Too often in these situations when I read them online, it reads like 3e had no system for it. Like the DM had no chance to control it. The "accepted wisdom" seems to be the 4 fights & rest was the only system available. (Rather than an example of pacing.)

 

[Shemeska]

This is one of thosae things I've only heard about on line and never seen in any game I've been part of.

Like a lot of 'problems' 4e proclaims to fix, it's something I'd never encountered before in an actual game, nor heard talked about as a problem till the past few months.

 

[Crothian]

Like a lot of 'problems' 4e proclaims to fix, it's something I'd never encountered before in an actual game, nor heard talked about as a problem till the past few months.

I have heard of people doing it as far back as the late second edition days but still it was only on the net.

 

[jaldaen]

Though only anecdotal I have seen this in campaigns I have both DMed for and played in. However, said campaigns were often called "Death March Campaigns" where the players understood that their characters were in mortal danger almost all the time. I think this prompted a bit of paranoia in the players that resulted in a "circle the wagons" mentality whenever one of the spellcasters or frontline fighters was getting low on resources (spells or hit points). They also knew the DM was not going to pull any punches and was a tactical wargamer, which meant battles frequently called for every player to pull their weight or die.

These encounters could be a lot of fun, but I also think they encouraged "turtling" whenever possible if only to survive to fight for one more day.

 

[drothgery]

I have heard of people doing it as far back as the late second edition days but still it was only on the net.

Eh. It's not uncommon for our group, though it doesn't become pronounced until Teleport or something similar is available. At that point, if we're expecting a really tough fight, or we bravely ran away the last time we went up against something, it's scry-buff-teleport (actually, the scrying and buffing are optional) and nova time.

 

[Celtavian]

re

What is the "15 minute adventuring day"? Is this another one of those things I've never played with where the party rests after every fight because the foolish wizard and priest have blown off all their spells for the day?

Never played with it. Not playing with it in 4E. If anyone ever played in the type of campaigns we run, you would not know what the 15 minute adventuring day was like because I would send a waves of attackers after you and that rope trick garbage would be figured out fairly quickly and dealt with by the BBEG (who would be very familiar with such tactics).

No, 4E hasn't dealt with this problem. It's not a problem that mechanics can deal with. The only way to deal with such a strange way of playing is to teach players that choose such a path that they will not be left alone to regenerate their spells and abilities on a daily basis after every battle.

Tactical use of power and expending power when needed should be a fear or any party. If your party doesn't fear to blow off every big spell and ability they have, then you are running the game in a very soft way in my opinion. You have to ratched the pain up and ensure your party feels the pressure of having to finish a task or they will fail the adventure.

 

[Gothmog]

Yeah, 4e does pretty much solve the 15 minute adventuring day IME. We've played 4e from 1st to 6th level now, and had NO 15 minute days.

In 3e, it didn't happen often in my group, but it did happen, on average about once every 2 adventures. Core 3e assumes WAY more combat than I usually use, so I scaled back the number of encounters, but made them tougher. Yes, I realize that might make the 15 min day more common, but it wasn't the planned encounters that made the PCs go rest after one fight- it was random encounters or set-piece encounters to lead into the plot and story that made them do the 15 minute day thing. Nothing breaks pacing and continuity of a game like when PCs finish an encounter, only to retreat and rest up to full resources, only to return again 12 or so hours later. I started having monsters and NPCs make preparations while the PCs were resting- fortifying defenses, relocating, tracking the PCs back to their resting spot and attacking, etc- basically responses that any intelligent enemy would take if they discovered someone had attacked or messed with their minions/brothers in arms.

3e did absolutely nothing to discourage this either. Usually it wasn't hit points that were running low, or PCs weren't down and dying, but it was that the wizard or cleric had blown some of their big gun spells in the encounter, and wanted to come back and use those big guns again. This problem gets MUCH worse in 3e once 5th level and above spells become available (scry and teleport, I'm looking at you). 4e is better designed in this regard, because healing surges are available to every character (thus reducing mandated healers in the group), and most powers recharges after an encounter. Daily powers are meant to be used when the situation is dire, or against elites or solos- and its usually pretty easy to tell who those critters are. I've had numerous "days" pass in 4e I and many of my players NEVER used the daily power, since it didn't seem like I/they needed it, and no suitable target presented itself. But when you do use your daily....WOW....some nasty things can happen. I've not seen the 15 minute day happen in 4e. I have seen characters get so beat up after 2 or 3 encounters they are out of healing surges and retreat to rest and regroup, but thats been over the course of 3-5 hours in game time.

 

[Ahglock]

I have heard of people doing it as far back as the late second edition days but still it was only on the net.

Yeh I've head about this for a while. It makes sense in a computer game like balders gate and heck I suspect there encounters were balanced under that assumption. But in pen and paper we never saw it because in the context of the world as the DMs portrayed them it just never made sense.

 

[Kzach]

I don't think the system itself solves the problem. I feel it's really a matter of finding a group that doesn't play that way.

I haven't yet encountered a group when playing 4e that has blown dailies willy-nilly and sought to rest 24 hours between encounters. I think most of the people I've played 4e with so far would think that kind of play is just silly and time-wasting.

So far, the only times we've stopped was when the encounter required several of us to use our dailies to win, or we've run low on healing surges. I've now played 4e in five distinct groups of people, online and offline, and everyone automatically assumed this behaviour without anyone indicating a preference against it.

I think normal, reasonable people just want to get on with the game and spend as little time between encounters as possible, whether they be roleplaying encounters or combat encounters or skill challenges. At the end of the day, a fast game is a good game.

 

[Runestar]

Was it that big of a problem? I mean, back in 3e, just because my party wanted to rest after every fight did not necessarily mean that they would have a chance to. I could throw an encounter at them while they were resting for the day, or give them quests with a tight time limit, so they would be encouraged to "stretch" their limits before resting.

The one time this happened was in the CoTSQ module, where the party fought 4 encounters back to back, which pretty much taxed most of their resources. But since it was 4 fights over the course of a short period of time, I saw nothing wrong with them deciding to rest and replenish their resources for the day. They sure earned it.