Epic Fight turns into Epic Farce
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Sounds like a classic encounter! And they won in the end anyway despite 5 of 6 fleeing to start with. Nope, no problem here...the area-effect save did what is should, and turned a simple combat into something complex and interesting.
In other words, area saves are fine with me, and I disagree with how 4e has weakened effects so much and made the saves both easier and more frequent.
And as for the "problem" where a bad save means you have to sit by for a while and cheer your fellow players on, tough. If it really bothers you that much, play two characters...double your chance of at least one of 'em sticking around...
Lanefan
In other words, area saves are fine with me, and I disagree with how 4e has weakened effects so much and made the saves both easier and more frequent.
And as for the "problem" where a bad save means you have to sit by for a while and cheer your fellow players on, tough. If it really bothers you that much, play two characters...double your chance of at least one of 'em sticking around...
Lanefan
The idea that save or die isn't cinematic or epic is, quite frankly, alien to me. You charge up the steps to find the evil wizard who turns at you and, with a snarl and a wave of his hand, you feel the arcane powers course through your body. Though most of you resist it, one members gives a cry and falls as his eyes bulge, sighing as his spirit exits his body. The rest of you eye one another and you all think to yourselves - oh, it's on now.
Crap happens - learn to deal with it. Do you think the men who faced the mythical medusa had the luxury of making 3 saves over the course of multiple rounds? Heck, I don't think they even had the benefit of a fort save!
If you are facing multiple harpies who love to spam their captivating song, counter it with silence or something. 3e is admitably a little more "all or nothing" in this aspect. You either get affected bad, or are outright immune to its effects because of the myriad of buffs available to you.
Not sure if it is necessarily a bad idea - since I feel that it helps emphasize the deadliness of these monsters, if a failed save or 2 all but means sure doom. Keeps the game tense, because you know that the tide could easily swing either way due to the most fickle of women - lady luck. You don't just go storming into their lair expecting an easy kill. You need to research and understand your enemies properly, then take the appropriate counter-measures before victory can be assured.
If you are facing multiple harpies who love to spam their captivating song, counter it with silence or something. 3e is admitably a little more "all or nothing" in this aspect. You either get affected bad, or are outright immune to its effects because of the myriad of buffs available to you.
Not sure if it is necessarily a bad idea - since I feel that it helps emphasize the deadliness of these monsters, if a failed save or 2 all but means sure doom. Keeps the game tense, because you know that the tide could easily swing either way due to the most fickle of women - lady luck. You don't just go storming into their lair expecting an easy kill. You need to research and understand your enemies properly, then take the appropriate counter-measures before victory can be assured.
Scurvy_Platypus
Explorer
Thanks for telling everyone how to play. I didn't realize I was running my games so badly until you explained it for me.
Put me in the boat of this isn't a problem, it was just some extraordinarly bad luck for your party.
Its part of dnd. Every party remembers that time when they beat the odds and win when they really shouldn't have. But the flip side is when the party get trounched by an encounter they should easily win.
Now I agree that save or dies are a bad part of the game because then that bad luck can translate to the permanent loss of your character. But in this situation, the fear caused your party some embarrasment, but you all rallied together and won the day anyway.
Its part of dnd. Every party remembers that time when they beat the odds and win when they really shouldn't have. But the flip side is when the party get trounched by an encounter they should easily win.
Now I agree that save or dies are a bad part of the game because then that bad luck can translate to the permanent loss of your character. But in this situation, the fear caused your party some embarrasment, but you all rallied together and won the day anyway.
cangrejoide
First Post
This is all very nice as written, but what happens when not one of you players fails a save but half the party?
It goes against the narrative and just becomes very anticlimatic. Imagine beowulf facing the Grendel on his last epic battle and rolling a '1' on his fear check, yup Beowulf is a great hero. Add to that any other fantasy literature hero failing their saves at the last climatic battle.
Crap happens - learn to deal with it. Do you think the men who faced the mythical medusa had the luxury of making 3 saves over the course of multiple rounds? Heck, I don't think they even had the benefit of a fort save!
If you are facing multiple harpies who love to spam their captivating song, counter it with silence or something. 3e is admitably a little more "all or nothing" in this aspect. You either get affected bad, or are outright immune to its effects because of the myriad of buffs available to you.
Not sure if it is necessarily a bad idea - since I feel that it helps emphasize the deadliness of these monsters, if a failed save or 2 all but means sure doom. Keeps the game tense, because you know that the tide could easily swing either way due to the most fickle of women - lady luck. You don't just go storming into their lair expecting an easy kill. You need to research and understand your enemies properly, then take the appropriate counter-measures before victory can be assured.
A good DM can keep the game tense without using any 'save or suck' effects. You should fear the evil wizard because he is a master of the dark arts, not because I could roll a '1' on a 'save or suck' spell.
And with the amounts of 'save or suck' abilities at high level odds are even the players with the best saves will fail one miserably.
And what better way to make the party fear him than a personal demonstration of his prowess? I mean - storytelling alone only goes so far to make the PCs scared of him. You still need stats to complete the equation.
Don't you have it backwards? Your PCs should not automatically be entitled to resist the fear effect simply because they are supposed to be heroes. Rather, I feel that they are heroes exactly because it is their stats that allow them to perform heroic stuff, such as resist the medusa's gaze or aforementioned fear effect, penetrate the dragon's high AC, deal enough damage to deplete the tarrasque's high hp reserve, dodge the enemy wizard's fireball and other equally heroic stunts.
At the end of the day, it should be what you achieve, and how you attained them that decides whether you can consider yourself a hero or not. Did you slay the dragon and rescue the princess at the end of the day? If so, you are a hero. If you failed for whatever reason, then sadly, you are a zero.
Likewise, Beowulf is considered a hero by english literature standards because of his accomplishments (although I understand this example is a little backwards because the author would already have decided from the start what opponents he would overcome and what challenges he would fail).
Wisdom Penalty
First Post
[threadhijack]
You know what I just realized? I sorta liked 3e's save or die stuff, or at least I didn't mind it. But I hated it's save or sit out stuff.
Having your character die during an adventure is part and parcel of this game we play, irrespective of the edition. What really stinks, I think, is when a player is forced to sit on his hands because his character is running away, held for 42 rounds, or otherwise marginalized for what-can-be a significant amount of real time.
Can you say "fun sponge"?
[endhijack]
Wis
You know what I just realized? I sorta liked 3e's save or die stuff, or at least I didn't mind it. But I hated it's save or sit out stuff.
Having your character die during an adventure is part and parcel of this game we play, irrespective of the edition. What really stinks, I think, is when a player is forced to sit on his hands because his character is running away, held for 42 rounds, or otherwise marginalized for what-can-be a significant amount of real time.
Can you say "fun sponge"?
[endhijack]
Wis
