A niche? I don't see how 4E characters cover a niche outside combat? Every character can do everything (just some can do it even better than others), so there are no niches.
My first 4E game...
- Thread starter Treebore
- Start date
A niche? I don't see how 4E characters cover a niche outside combat? Every character can do everything (just some can do it even better than others), so there are no niches.
AtomicPope
Hero
So you're saying you can't tell the difference between Class Skills and no skills? It's really simple. Lemme show you:
[snarky]
Classes have a predefined list of skills that they can choose as trained skills called Class Skills. Skilled classes can choose training in more skills than other classes, such as Rangers and Rogues. You're probably asking yourself, "mommy, what does training do?" What skill training means is you'll gain a +5 bonus to all rolls with that skill. Character who are not trained gain no such bonus. The end result is a group of characters that are trained in a thematic list of skills thus defining their niche outside of combat.
[/snarky]
Did that help?
No, the difference is a single +5. Nothing else and a +5 does not make a niche. Especially as 4E balances DCs according to the level of the PCs so that the untrained PC also have a ~50% chance of succeeding.
The only real niche is ritual casting, but even that is attainable by everyone, although with a moderate resource investment.
AtomicPope
Hero
Skill training is more than a +5. Read the book. Actually read the book for a change. Training in skills opens up Utility powers and abilities within the skill itself. Also, +5 in a scaling system means the character will succeed ~75% of the time which is considerably better than a coin flip. In 4e +1 is a big deal and is rarely handed out. How many classes get +1 to attack with all attacks? None. Fighters and Rogues get a weapon talent (single type or group) while Rangers and Warlocks get Prime Shot (ranged only). No one gets +1 to all attacks. Bonuses and penalties are huge in 4e.
Finally, if you're really serious about discovering noncombat niches (but clearly you're not) then you should look at the Utility Powers. See what Rogues, Warlocks, Rangers, and Paladins can do with their non-combat Utility powers. It suggest a niche beyond a +5 training roll.
Given that different PCs will use different approaches to any given skill challenge, I think that niches are there.
The last sentence is not true at all. I used PC background extensively in a 2E game with no background skills. And Skeptic has posted a system of background mechanics on these forums that don't require skills (roughly - nominate a background feature for your PC (no more than 5 at a time), call on it once per session for a +2 bonus, GM may call on it for a -2 penalty and once that's done you may ditch it).
Something like Skeptic's system would integrate background into 4e's skill challenge system better than bloating the skill list, which would undermine the skill challenge system.
Eridanis
Bard 7/Mod (ret) 10/Mgr 3
No, snark hardly ever helps keep a conversation productive. Knowing you're doing it is even worse.
Please use your three-day vacation to relax and come back with a more helpful attitude.
catsclaw227
First Post
This is good advice.
We converted my Age of Worms campaign to 4e and have run 2 sessions so far. Because of the difference in core level range between 3e (1-20) and 4e (1-30), we converted 8th level characters to 11th level, giving them Paragon Paths and some extra power.
We currently have a Halfling Rogue/Shadow Assassin, a Human Cleric/Radiant Servant, a Human Wizard/Battle Mage, a Dragonborn Paladin/Justicar, and an Elf Ranger/Battlefield Archer.
This creates a great mix of combat abilities and skills for skill challenges. I ran an ad-hoc skill challenge for the PCs to find the location of the BBEGs lair based upon clues found in the Doppelganger lair.
All in all it was a really good time, though one of the players isn't having as much fun, but that's more because of upheaval in his personal life and not the game (confirmed by the player).
What would you have done if the PCs had failed that skill challenge?
ANd how do you use background without skills? Just say "I was an X so I can do it?" (Ok, thats generally how it was done in 2E).
The problem is that 4E still is a rules heavy system so heavy rules light background skills don't fit as they are not equal to the rest of the system.
Why should you have to rely on ability scores and arbitrary bonuses for background skills while all other skills are handled very differently. Some people are ok with that, some people, mostly the one who generally feel that the 4E skill system is too simple to be really practical, are not.
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Imaro
Legend
I guess I just find it hard to believe that a character based around limited resources (mainly casters, and especially the wizard since he pre-selects spells) can "dominate" anothers area. This is how I see it, a wizard can only have so many knock spells or spider climb, or whatever and still have combat spells. If you, as a DM are making sure it's enough challenges for each player to shine in their perspective areas... then their will be enough problems where the wizard and rogue will get to do their thing. Or (if the wizard is combat focused) the wizard and fighter get to flex their combat shtick. Personally I think the casters can't cover every role all the time and this is what makes them balanced, if they take a broad grouping of spells this is especially true, and they risk not having the proper spell for the proper situation.
It's funny you use this argument, as I've seen the exact opposite argued by proponents of 4e... that any skill is available to any character through use of a feat, and that you get so many feats it's not even a big deal to spend one or two on this anyway... so how does this protect or enforce niches outside of combat? For two feats (skill training and skill focus) my Wizard can now pick locks, pick pockets, disable traps and use sleight of hand as well as a thief, in fact this problem is amplified by the fact that skills are so broad now... the wizard is now as good as the rogue in everything related to thievery.
I think your thoughts on bonuses and penalties do not take into consideration different defenses and/or differing damages and how those even out those bonuses, just my thoughts though.
The Utility powers (at least at low level) are a joke as far as non-combat niches go since most are built to be used in combat. The only class that gets a fair amount with usage outside a combat situation is the Rogue.
The Little Raven
First Post
A wizard with Thievery will not pick pockets as a minor action (Quick Fingers). A wizard with Stealth will not be able to move full speed without penalty, while sneaking (Fleeting Ghost). A wizard with Stealth will not be able to lose concealment or cover, but remain hidden from an enemy (Chameleon). A wizard with Thievery will not be able to pick pockets without a -10 penalty in combat (Dangerous Theft).
So, no, getting Skill Training and Skill Focus does not make you as good as the Rogue in everything related to Thievery... or Stealth... or any other skill, for that matter.
