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Forked Thread: What is WOTC's Goal with the GSL?

So if someone made an OGL in all but name just to get around the current GSL and released a game with that new license and publishers released material for both 4E and that other game, you are certain that Wizards would have no problem with it, ever, regardless of staff changes and whoever Hasbro appoints to the company's top job? Is this what you are saying?

As long as the potential for abuse is there, it is not acceptable, as far as I am concerned. The OGL+d20 combo was perfect because it was abuse free. Wizards didn't like BoEF so the company just went OGL. Fearing a new edition, go OGL. Want to make your own game with modified d20 rules, go OGL.
A company can't make an OGL of WOTC's product, but why should they be restricted from making a license of their own for their own mechanics and IP? It's meaningless. And I'm not sure about the law regarding it, but even if the law wouldn't see it as monopolistic practices, it seems unethical to me to restrict the mixing of your own license with anyone else's.

What do WOTC's staff changes and top jobs have anything to do with another company's license?

The key words in your second paragraph are "as far as I'm concerned". I'm not going to counter a personal opinion. I'm not really certain what the paragraph has to do with the subject anyway.

You said that the OGL was "abuse free". It was only abuse free on WOTC's part. They can't abuse the licensee, but the licensee can very much abuse the OGL and WOTC's product.
 
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As long as the potential for abuse is there, it is not acceptable, as far as I am concerned. The OGL+d20 combo was perfect because it was abuse free. Wizards didn't like BoEF so the company just went OGL. Fearing a new edition, go OGL. Want to make your own game with modified d20 rules, go OGL.

And right there is why I think the GSL was much more strict. This time around it's dealing with a lot more of the IP, and trying to make the trademark you can put on your book worth something.
 

A company can't make an OGL of WOTC's product, but why should they be restricted from making a license of their own for their own mechanics and IP? It's meaningless. And I'm not sure about the law regarding it, but even if the law wouldn't see it as monopolistic practices, it seems unethical to me to restrict the mixing of your own license with anyone else's.

Take WEG's d6 for example. Less then a month before the GSL's launch, WEG announced the Open d6 project. It would have a whole new license, similar to the OGL, but different enough to get around the GSL. (That was before anyone outside of WotC saw the GSL and before Gibson gave up on WEG).

Hypothetical Situation: For the sake of argument that that actually happened. Mongoose decides they want Wraith Recon in both 4E and d6. Wizards decides they don't like that and they change the GSL to include WEG's OGL-esque license. What then?

Wizards has the potential to include every single licensed product out there. Its even possible that they can write the GSL to include inhouse systems. Potential abuse of power.

What do WOTC's staff changes and top jobs have anything to do with another company's license?

The GSL can be changed at any point in time, without warning. So "WotC's Goals" today and "WotC's Goals" future must be taken into account. People forge the direction of a company. WotC today is different then WotC of 8 years ago. It is only logical to assume that WotC future is going to be different then WotC today. Wizards today might be fine with above hypothetical sitiuation while whoever's at Wizards 3 years from now might not find it such a good idea.

You said that the OGL was "abuse free". It was only abuse free on WOTC's part. They can't abuse the licensee, but the licensee can very much abuse the OGL and WOTC's product.

How? By creating True20 and Pathfinder? That was its intended use from the beginning and Dancey said as much before it launched.

Mongoose had a great idea with Traveller. They didn't release the core book in their SRD, they released the ability for 3rd party companies to make traveller compatable products. They used a Smart SRD design.

Wizards is full of smart people. They could have made it work. OGL 1.0A says open material can be published with any version of OGL license. They could have made OGL 2.0A that was more restrictive and made the D&DSTL that said you had to use OGL 2.0A and the 3.x srd's cannot be listed in the OGL2.0's section 15 in order to use the D&DSTL. They didn't. They wanted some thing they could terminate, at any point in time. Once D&DSTL ran out, people would just go back to OGL 1.0A. Wizards doesn't want that.
 

Take WEG's d6 for example. Less then a month before the GSL's launch, WEG announced the Open d6 project. It would have a whole new license, similar to the OGL, but different enough to get around the GSL. (That was before anyone outside of WotC saw the GSL and before Gibson gave up on WEG).

Hypothetical Situation: For the sake of argument that that actually happened. Mongoose decides they want Wraith Recon in both 4E and d6. Wizards decides they don't like that and they change the GSL to include WEG's OGL-esque license. What then?

Wizards has the potential to include every single licensed product out there. Its even possible that they can write the GSL to include inhouse systems. Potential abuse of power.

The GSL can be changed at any point in time, without warning. So "WotC's Goals" today and "WotC's Goals" future must be taken into account. People forge the direction of a company. WotC today is different then WotC of 8 years ago. It is only logical to assume that WotC future is going to be different then WotC today. Wizards today might be fine with above hypothetical sitiuation while whoever's at Wizards 3 years from now might not find it such a good idea.
I suppose that is possible, but it's not WOTC's style, and yes it could happen in the future, after realigning the planets and calling on Samhain, but its another one of those things that would cause any court to cry foul. But granted, in a very worst-case scenario, if courts were all about supporting the licenser and screwing the licensee at every opportunity, it's possible. I'll call it a big "if", but this is nothing more than a devil's advocate scenario that has no basis in reality, so I'm loath to entertain it as a deal breaker. You can continue to convince others in this thread of such a scenario, but I wouldn't put it on the list of deal breakers. What I see is someone who witnessed a bad dealing with WOTC and now has conspiracy theories running to Jupiter and back making it look like WOTC trumps the courts.

How? By creating True20 and Pathfinder? That was its intended use from the beginning and Dancey said as much before it launched.

Mongoose had a great idea with Traveller. They didn't release the core book in their SRD, they released the ability for 3rd party companies to make traveller compatable products. They used a Smart SRD design.

Wizards is full of smart people. They could have made it work. OGL 1.0A says open material can be published with any version of OGL license. They could have made OGL 2.0A that was more restrictive and made the D&DSTL that said you had to use OGL 2.0A and the 3.x srd's cannot be listed in the OGL2.0's section 15 in order to use the D&DSTL. They didn't. They wanted some thing they could terminate, at any point in time. Once D&DSTL ran out, people would just go back to OGL 1.0A. Wizards doesn't want that.
True20 is not a D20 product. It was created in response to what they didn't like about D20.

Dancey said that the OGL was about screwing the licenser? No, his plan was that companies would be able to use the licenser's product to the benefit of all parties. The OGL provides NO benefit to the licenser.

Look, the earliest period of any document is going to have a lot of holes that need filling. Often, as is the case here, phrasing causes stickiness that can take a long time to go away, or in this case: never. The OGL is far from perfect, and the fact that the network barely comes back to WOTC is problematic. I don't have the diagram in front of me, but I believe Dancey's diagram put the licenser at the center of the network, but the OGL in practice puts the licenser on parallel footing in the market to the licensee, meaning they get no greater market share than the licensee, meaning also that they create a competitor to take market share away from the licenser with little to no return. That's losing profit, not gaining profit.

I'm telling you now, we have been around this in several circles already, and I don't see the circles stopping any time soon. I'm getting dizzy here.
 

True20 is not a D20 product. It was created in response to what they didn't like about D20.

I know, but True20 and Pathfinder are two popular examples of "abuse" cited by 3rd party companies. Hense my citing them now.

Dancey said that the OGL was about screwing the licenser? No, his plan was that companies would be able to use the licenser's product to the benefit of all parties. The OGL provides NO benefit to the licenser.
...
I don't have the diagram in front of me, but I believe Dancey's diagram put the licenser at the center of the network, but the OGL in practice puts the licenser on parallel footing in the market to the licensee, meaning they get no greater market share than the licensee, meaning also that they create a competitor to take market share away from the licenser with little to no return. That's losing profit, not gaining profit.

You're referring to this. link

Dancey said:
We've got a theory that says that D&D is the most popular roleplaying game because it is the game more people know how to play than any other game. (For those of you interested researching the theory, this concept is called "The Theory of Network Externalities.")
[ Note: This is a very painful concept for a lot of people to embrace, including a lot of our own staff, and including myself for many years. The idea that D&D is somehow "better" than the competition is a powerful and entrenched concept. The idea that D&D can be "beaten" by a game that is "better" than D&D is at the heart of every business plan from every company that goes into marketplace battle with D&D game. If you accept the Theory of Network Externalities, you have to admit that the battle is lost before it begins, because the value doesn't reside in the game itself, but in the network of people who know how to play it.]
If you accept (as I have finally come to do) that the theory is valid, then the logical conclusion is that the larger the number of people who play D&D, the harder it is for competitive games to succeed, and the longer people will stay active gamers, and the more value the network of D&D players will have to Wizards of the Coast.
In fact, we believe that there may be a secondary market force we jokingly call "The Skaff Effect," after our own [game designer] Skaff Elias. Skaff is one of the smartest guys in the company, and after looking at lots of trends and thinking about our business over a long period of time, he enunciated his theory thusly:
"All marketing and sales activity in a hobby gaming genre eventually contributes to the overall success of the market share leader in that genre."
In other words, the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made. Now, there are clearly issues of efficiency -- not every dollar input to the market results in a dollar output in D&D sales; and there is a substantial time lag between input and output; and a certain amount of people are diverted from D&D to other games never to return. However, we believe very strongly that the net effect of the competition in the RPG genre is positive for D&D.
The downside here is that I believe that one of the reasons that the RPG as a category has declined so much from the early 90s relates to the proliferation of systems. Every one of those different game systems creates a "bubble" of market inefficiency; the cumulative effect of all those bubbles has proven to be a massive downsizing of the marketplace. I have to note, highlight, and reiterate: The problem is not competitive >product<, the problem is competitive >systems<. I am very much for competition and for a lot of interesting and cool products.
So much for the dry theory and background. Here's the logical conclusions we've drawn:
We make more revenue and more profit from our core rulebooks than any other part of our product lines. In a sense, every other RPG product we sell other than the core rulebooks is a giant, self-financing marketing program to drive sales of those core books. At an extreme view, you could say that the core >book< of the PHB is the focus of all this activity, and in fact, the PHB is the #1 best selling, and most profitable RPG product Wizards of the Coast makes year in and year out.

The Basic idea of the OGL is to drive up sales of the PHB. And it has. It was their best selling book. Anyone that wanted to play freeport adventures or City of Brass had to have a PHB. That is the benefit provided by the OGL/D20 combo and made it perfect. The OGL itself was the "guarantee" to publishers that they can't be screwed over. The d20 license provided the restrictions on publishers.

Having both in a single license, either means either the restrictions are going to be short changed or the "guarantee" is going to get short changed. I don't see any changes to the GSL that will bring the "guarantee" back.
 

I know, but True20 and Pathfinder are two popular examples of "abuse" cited by 3rd party companies. Hense my citing them now.
Then your point is moot, because we're talking about abuses WITHIN the OGL, not outside of it.

You're referring to this. link
No, I was talking about Dancey's orginal article, which contains a diagram.

The Basic idea of the OGL is to drive up sales of the PHB. And it has. It was their best selling book. Anyone that wanted to play freeport adventures or City of Brass had to have a PHB. That is the benefit provided by the OGL/D20 combo and made it perfect. The OGL itself was the "guarantee" to publishers that they can't be screwed over. The d20 license provided the restrictions on publishers.

Having both in a single license, either means either the restrictions are going to be short changed or the "guarantee" is going to get short changed. I don't see any changes to the GSL that will bring the "guarantee" back.
You've made a general statement saying "I don't see any changes to the GSL that will bring the "guarantee" back." Since no such changes have been discussed publicly, it's easy for anyone to say this. There is nothing outside of 6.1, 11.1, and 11.3 that would prevent bringing your so-called guarantee back. If you replace those three subsections, you can easily make it protect both parties while securing profit for the licenser. No other subsection would prevent it.
 
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True20 is not a D20 product. It was created in response to what they didn't like about D20.

I know, but True20 and Pathfinder are two popular examples of "abuse" cited by 3rd party companies. Hense my citing them now.

Then your point is moot, because we're talking about abuses WITHIN the OGL, not outside of it.

Um, no its not moot. True20 IS OGL. It is NOT d20. Two completely different license that can (but not must) work together. One of the references on the OGL in the True20 system book is the d20 SRD. The abuses by 3PP that are generally referred to by Pro-WotC supporters refer to someone that takes the SRD and reprintes the whole of it. Mongoose did this with the Pocket Players Guide and others have as well.

True20 and Pathfinder are wrongfully lumped in with them because they took the core of these made new games out of them. True20 stripped away alot of rules and simplified the math. Pathfinder kept the basic game and enhanced it into an upgraded game, while still being recognizible and compatable.
 

I responed to this in the other thread. I can't see anything that would stop me publishing monster X as a GSL product, then publishing a miniature for that product as an unlicensed product.

Of course, I couldn't label the mini as a D&D product, nor include a stat card.

As for power cards, nothing stops me doing power cards for my own powers - but I can't do them for core rulebook powers.

I don't think that's correct. I think you COULD put a stat card with the mini - you couldn't use the D&D name on it without some sort of license agreement, that's true.

The stats couldn't include anything from the licensed-only material (as far as abilities, powers, etc), but there is no way for WotC to legally restrict the basic mechanics of the game. There is no protection for the rules of a game - only the trademarks, the rule book (meaning the actual book itself - which includes layout, typography, specific diction, etc), and of course specific non-universally recognizable or inspired creations contained within it.

You could very well make a miniature and include a basic generic stat card with it, so long as you didn't use the exact wording from the PHB/MM/DMG (or any other book WotC has put out for that matter), and be within your legal rights to do so and to sell it. I think you could probably get away with something like "Compatible with the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition rules" too - just look at all the "knock-off" products for anything and everything out there (or the 'clones' or 'clone-like addons' for products out there). Derrivative and inspired works are allowed under our (US) copyright laws too - and that includes things like stating compatibility or comparison to official productions of a product identity.
 

Um, no its not moot. True20 IS OGL. It is NOT d20. Two completely different license that can (but not must) work together. One of the references on the OGL in the True20 system book is the d20 SRD. The abuses by 3PP that are generally referred to by Pro-WotC supporters refer to someone that takes the SRD and reprintes the whole of it. Mongoose did this with the Pocket Players Guide and others have as well.

True20 and Pathfinder are wrongfully lumped in with them because they took the core of these made new games out of them. True20 stripped away alot of rules and simplified the math. Pathfinder kept the basic game and enhanced it into an upgraded game, while still being recognizible and compatable.
I was under the impression True20 was under copyright provision, not logo-stricken OGL. I'll have to review their OGL. But then, just the fact that it allows you to use the license without the logo is indeed one example of abuse, which the GSL remedies.
 

I don't think that's correct. I think you COULD put a stat card with the mini - you couldn't use the D&D name on it without some sort of license agreement, that's true.

The stats couldn't include anything from the licensed-only material (as far as abilities, powers, etc), but there is no way for WotC to legally restrict the basic mechanics of the game. There is no protection for the rules of a game - only the trademarks, the rule book (meaning the actual book itself - which includes layout, typography, specific diction, etc), and of course specific non-universally recognizable or inspired creations contained within it.

You could very well make a miniature and include a basic generic stat card with it, so long as you didn't use the exact wording from the PHB/MM/DMG (or any other book WotC has put out for that matter), and be within your legal rights to do so and to sell it. I think you could probably get away with something like "Compatible with the Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition rules" too
Having entered into the GSL, a 3pp acquires certain contractual obligations in respect of WoTC's IP rights (see eg clause 10). I think that a stat card published with a miniature would be in danger of violating these contractual obligations.

It is not really to the point that, under unadulterated IP law, someone could publish such a card. Part of the point of the GSL, from WoTC's point of view, is that parties to it have agreed to grant WoTC more extensive IP rights than the law might otherwise grant them.
 

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