Optimizing A Bard

[StreamOfTheSky]

I haven't. Many others have threads on diplomacy optimization, but the fact that the DCs are flat and you can easily (as a bard, with all the skills on your list) get a +6 just from synergy bonuses makes it pretty straightforward as to why even with a -10 penalty, rushed diplomacy is laughably easy from middle levels on. If you REALLY want it twinked high as possible, you can be a half-elf with skill focus and whatever the name of the +2/+2 feat for diplomacy is and reliably end combats on round one starting at ~level 3, or so I've been told.

 

[aboyd]

Hmm. I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated. Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy. To do it, I took:

+6 to diplomacy (max)
+5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to knowledge/nobility (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to sense motive (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+3 to diplomacy from skill focus feat
+2 to diplomacy from negotiator feat
+4 to diplomacy from charisma
+2 to diplomacy from half-elf race

To make a combatant go from fighting to "merely" taunting you and demanding that you leave is a DC 25 check if you want to do it one round.

With a +13 (23 - 10 for rushing diplomacy), a roll of 12 or better would succeed.

To make a combatant go from fighting to feeling neutral about you, so that you are free to come & go without danger is a DC 35. You couldn't roll it at level 3, although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.

So, hmm. To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected. At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma). At that point, it starts being useful. You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.

I looked for spells that would buff the diplomacy, but only found the charisma buff. Complete Mage has Catsfeet, which gives a +5 to some skills, but not Diplomacy. If I could find a lengthy, sizable buff to Diplomacy, I think I could really have a quality "broken" build.

 

[Shin Okada]

The main problem of that "tactics" is, NPC's behavior is basically under control of the DM. He can freely decide Diplomacy check is simply impossible, or that try takes really much time as the NPC is so determined, or just give whatever amount of circumstance penalty.

 

[Legildur]

...although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.

Not for skills checks - only attack rolls and saving throws.

 

[roguerouge]

Shin, just to clarify, I brought up the CG paladin variant to point out that there need not be an alignment clash between the two classes for the purposes of Devoted Performer.

 

[roguerouge]

Actually, Shin, a close second in the Diplomacy problem hierarchy is the other players at the table. It's usually the barbarian or the evoker that ruins it for you.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, hmm. To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected. At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma). At that point, it starts being useful. You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.

I looked for spells that would buff the diplomacy, but only found the charisma buff. Complete Mage has Catsfeet, which gives a +5 to some skills, but not Diplomacy. If I could find a lengthy, sizable buff to Diplomacy, I think I could really have a quality "broken" build.

Ok, since you went to all that trouble, I may as well contribute more to the "build" that I can think of. First off, there are some dirty tricks. Like dipping Marshal 1. Choose Motivate Charisma as your minor aura, and now you're adding that +4 cha twice. Marshal also gives you skill focus: diplomacy for free, leaving a feat open. Coincidentally, I think Races of Destiny has a Half-Elf feat to gain +3 from synergy bonuses instead of +2. That's another +3 bonus o Diplomacy, from your three synergies. It's not available at level 3, but later on you can add the Voice of the Dragon spell from spell compendium.

Now, I don't think going to such extreme lengths i ever a good or fun idea, just in general. If you abuse anything too much, you're just asking for the DM to step in and do as Shin says. Not to mention the whole classes of monsters already immune. And ultimately, as roguerouge points out, the other players will likely want to actually have fights.

 

[roguerouge]

Hmm. I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated. Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy. To do it, I took:

+6 to diplomacy (max)
+5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to knowledge/nobility (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to sense motive (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+3 to diplomacy from skill focus feat
+2 to diplomacy from negotiator feat
+4 to diplomacy from charisma
+2 to diplomacy from half-elf race

To make a combatant go from fighting to "merely" taunting you and demanding that you leave is a DC 25 check if you want to do it one round.

With a +13 (23 - 10 for rushing diplomacy), a roll of 12 or better would succeed.

To make a combatant go from fighting to feeling neutral about you, so that you are free to come & go without danger is a DC 35. You couldn't roll it at level 3, although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.

So, hmm. To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected. At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma). At that point, it starts being useful. You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.

Think about it this way. You can get much the same effect of stopping combat cold at level three with a wizard's web spell. And at level 9, when the bard's got a 20 percent chance to move people from hostile to neutral in one round, the cleric is raising the dead and the wizard's teleporting and polymorphing people.

I'd hardly call anything the bard's doing broken compared to that, especially since to get the results you're getting, the bard's taking two feats and a suboptimal race to become a one-trick pony.

 

[roguerouge]

Hmm. I think you're right, although it's a little exaggerated. Using PCGen, I was able to create a level 3 bard that had a +23 to diplomacy. To do it, I took:

+6 to diplomacy (max)
+5 to bluff (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to knowledge/nobility (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+5 to sense motive (+2 synergy bonus to diplomacy)
+3 to diplomacy from skill focus feat
+2 to diplomacy from negotiator feat
+4 to diplomacy from charisma
+2 to diplomacy from half-elf race

To make a combatant go from fighting to "merely" taunting you and demanding that you leave is a DC 25 check if you want to do it one round.

With a +13 (23 - 10 for rushing diplomacy), a roll of 12 or better would succeed.

To make a combatant go from fighting to feeling neutral about you, so that you are free to come & go without danger is a DC 35. You couldn't roll it at level 3, although natural 20s always work, so that'd be the one shot.

So, hmm. To me, that's not really awesome, but it is better than I expected. At level 8, you'd have another 6 points in it (5 from leveling up and maxing the pips in Diplomacy as you go, plus 1 extra assuming you put both stat points into charisma). At that point, it starts being useful. You'd only need a 6 or more to "calm" combatants down to merely shouting obscenities at each other, and with a 16 you could make them feel neutral about the whole thing.

Think about it this way. You can get much the same effect of stopping combat cold at level three with a wizard's web spell. And at level 9, when the bard's got a 20 percent chance to move people from hostile to neutral in one round, the cleric is raising the dead and the wizard's teleporting and polymorphing people.

I'd hardly call anything the bard's doing broken compared to that, especially since to get the results you're getting, the bard's taking two feats and a suboptimal race to become a one-trick pony.

 

[green slime]

Re: Diplomacy

While the ability to turn people from "hostile" to "neutral" may be useful many times, it must be remembered that there will also be times when there are other motivations behind the antagonists' actions.

The oath-bound loyal defender of the King's chamber, aware of the intruder's intentions, will not stand aside, even if he sympathises with the motives of the intruders.