Beware this dire warning. Ignore it at your peril!

[Nail]

So, did the DM play the Swallow Whole ability properly? The peanut gallery wants to know.

 

[charlesatan]

I'm a bit surprised at the majority of responses so far. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could think everything about your encounter was either just fine or well-deserved.

It's also one of the few times I've seen so far where saying "but it wasn't any better in 3E" is a really weak defense for plain bad game mechanics. I'm a big fan of the 4E rules, but that doesn't keep me from being critical about bad rules.

Actually, we're a bit hard on the poster because this isn't really like 3E. In 3E, you could encounter a Mindflayer and be stunned for 3d4 rounds on a failed saving throw. An unlucky roll screws you for the rest of the game.

In 4E, there are such effects such as the Beholder's Petrification ability or the Nightwalker's Finger of Death. Except it's not down to one unlucky roll.

4E gives you a couple of chances to resist such conditions, either teamwork or multiple saving throws. Perhaps the most debilitating condition I've seen is from the Carrion Crawler (slowed --> immobilized --> stunned) as it has a -5 penalty to the save but even once you are stunned, a successful saving throw ends the condition. There are also some utility powers/class abilities which gives allies/yourself new saving throws.

So yes, you can end up screwed, but a) it takes time to do so, and b) you have a couple of chances to resist it. You know, it's like dying; you're sturdier in 4E but that doesn't mean you can't die.

In the case of the Purple Worm, let me show you exactly how difficult it is to use its Swallow ability.

1) It's a Level 16 Solo which means it likely won't be having allies.

2) Its basic attack deals 2d8 + 7 damage and a grab. That's what, an average of 16 damage per turn. Oh, and you know its 2 action points? Its virtually useless unless I mean to a) move/escape or b) use its Swallow ability because once I've grabbed my target, I can't use its basic attack anymore. I need to use its Clamping Jaws attack which I can only use next turn. A 15th-level Wizard who has Constitution 10 has 76 hit points. You can do the math how many turns the Purple Worm needs to deal damage to it before it can actually qualify to use its Swallow ability.

3) Even if I do manage to grab the PC, on their turn, they have at least two chances to escape from the Grab on their turn (move action to escape). That does not include the opportunity for other PCs to use their abilities to end the Grab, such as stunning/dazing the Purple Worm, shifting/pushing/pulling ally/Purple Worm or using Aid Another actions to help free the Grabbed target. Or leaders healing the said PC to prevent the use of the Swallow ability.

Honestly, I think what happened is that a) the GM used the "modified" Purple Worm incorrectly or b) poor teamwork.

As written the monster is seriously unfun.

Actually, of all the Solo monsters, the Purple Worm is the most unfun creature for the GM to run because it's too ineffective.

 

[DracoSuave]

The wizard could have solved his own problem with a well-placed thunderwave.

 

[deleteme123456]

The wizard could have solved his own problem with a well-placed thunderwave.

No, that's not a basic attack. If the wizard has magic missile he can use that, else it's just his staff if he's got one, or a dagger or crossbow.

Also, the wizard can't be force-moved because the restrained condition prevents that and only gets one escape attempt per turn due to the dazed condition.

Less clear is the effect of forced movement on the worm, but I would certainly think that works since there needs to be something that does. Again in this category, I am not sure that raising the wizard's HP value above bloodied technically helps... but a nice DM might say it does.

 

[James McMurray]

1) How is this different from prior versions of the game?

what does it matter? This isn't a "$e sucks" thread, it's a "powers that cause someone to be bored for2 hours suck" thread. If a prior edition has the same situation, it's a problem there as well.

2) Isn't it a good thing if a creature can actually inspire fear? Isn't that the point of abilities such as this?

Fear and boredom are seperate things. If you have to threaten giving someone the dullest gaming experience they've had in 20 years, you might want to rethink your strategies. Would you run a monster whose ability was "on a hit, the player has to sit quietly in the corner for two hours"? That's effectively what this was, except I rolled a die once in a while.

3) Why couldn't you make attacks? Sure, your melee may suck, but you can still attack. "Sitting back" just isn't in my vocabulary.

I did make attacks. But I never rolled the 20 I needed to deal 1d4 damage.

4) You survived 2 hours at 20 points per round? I'm impressed.

Like I said, it'd been deleveled. It was only 10 damage per round. Even then I wouldn't have survived that long, except the GM was nice and gave me a 1-in-6 chance of wiggling close enough to the mouth that someone in melee with the worm could have line of effect. So I got the benefit of a couple of heals. I also managed to roll a 19 on my save vs. death once. with +1 from Human Perseverance that was enough to let me heal back up to 1 (I was out of surges).

Dimension Door would have come in handy. Or Ghostphase armour. Or a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Or Eladrin Feystep.

In a normal game none of those would have helped. The monster's defenses were so much higher than my acrobatics or athletics that +5 from a ring wouldn't have helped. The armor would have to be 24th level to give me phasing. Those teleports require line of sight, which you don't have while inside a monster's stomach.

Either teleport would have helped in this situation, as the GM was giving me a chance to wiggle into the mouth, so I'd have had line of sight. However I'd already used my Dimension Door in a prior encounter to escape the grab of two dire stirges.

Which 6th-level Utility power did you have, anyway? Just wondering.

Dimension Door, but it was already used. I also have both Blur and Resistance for 10th level utils. Resistance would have at least let me survive, but I had Blur memorized that day.

As a GM who's used Purple Worms in 4E, I never really got to use that particular ability because it's actually very difficult to meet the conditions to use it:

1) PC must be grabbed at the start of the Purple Worm's turn
2) PC must be bloodied
3) Attack roll vs. Fortitude

Try targeting a wizard. He's easy to hit, easy to bloody, if he's used his teleport he can't escape the grab, and you're not going to miss the attack against his fortitude.

So you, the controller were grabbed, and got down to bloodied, no one healed you, you didn't escape the grasp, no one tried to shift or slide you, and no one thought 'hey, the wizard's in the mouth of a giant worm, maybe we should do something'

That took all of 2 rounds from the beast.

Round 1: Grab, cleric doesn't know that if I'm bloodied I get swallowed, so he waits to heal me just like he usually does. I couldn't possibly escape the grab with athletics or acrobatics, and I didn't roll the 20 I needed on my force orb to push it away. None of our ally-targeting movement effects that hadn't already been used could have pulled me out of the worm's reach.

Round 2: It bites me again so I'm bloodied, then action points to swallow me.

because no one marked the guy, no one kept him from you?

How do they do that? A mark from our paladin is -2 to hit and somewhere around 10 damage. That's not going to stop it from eating me.

Sorry. No sympathy here. The worm took advantage of obvious player mistakes, mistakes that take multiple rounds to happen before they can apply. at least you weren't dead'd for it.

There were no mistakes made. Doing anything differently would have required using OOC knowledge which we didn't have (and wouldn't have used) so that the cleric would have known to heal me sooner.

So are you (th OP) saying it would have been better to have simply died?

Definitely. I'd rather get up and walk away from the table than sit there ineffectively for 2 hours.

So, did the DM play the Swallow Whole ability properly? The peanut gallery wants to know.

Nope. He was nicer to me than the base rules would allow, because he gave me a chance to get healed from outside every now and then. If he'd played it as written I'd have died a lot sooner. Other than that, he played it right.

The wizard could have solved his own problem with a well-placed thunderwave.

Tried that. I didn't roll the 18+ that my 12th level Wizard needs to hit a 14th level solo brute's fortitude defense. I don't know the monster's exact numbers, but I've got a +14 to hit (5 Int, 6 level, 3 implement). Assuming the worm was a straight deleveling per the DMG, it had a 32 Fort.

And once I was inside, there was nowhere to push it to (assuming I could have Thunderwaved, which I couldn't since it's not a basic attack).

 

[James McMurray]

No, that's not a basic attack. If the wizard has magic missile he can use that, else it's just his staff if he's got one, or a dagger or crossbow.

I had magic missile, but we didn't have the errata. The base swallow whole ability only allows melee basic attacks.

Also, the wizard can't be force-moved because the restrained condition prevents that and only gets one escape attempt per turn due to the dazed condition.

You don't get any escape attempts when swallowed. You're restrained, not grabbed.

Less clear is the effect of forced movement on the worm, but I would certainly think that works since there needs to be something that does. Again in this category, I am not sure that raising the wizard's HP value above bloodied technically helps... but a nice DM might say it does.

Per the rules, none of that helps either. You're in the monster's space, so forced movement will just move you too. It only needs them to be bloodied to swallow them, not to keep them swallowed. Not that I ever stopped being bloodied after I was swallowed...

 

[Chen_93]

Lets see first you were in range to be grabbed by a purple worm as the wizard. This in and of itself is probably not a wise idea. Its a stupid monster. A defender should probably have had a decent time at holding it in place and wizard keeping range.

Now, forgetting that first point, after it grabbed you, no one was able to force move it away from you to break the grab. Further you could not dimension door or use a magic item or whatever to escape (though these may not have been available).

Finally the cleric did not heal you. This make me assume you did not roll sufficiently on your knowledge rolls for the creature to learn what its powers are.

So, to summarize:
1) Your wizard was in a bad situation (up in melee range of a brute)
2) No one was able to help him get away once it attacked (no forced movement after you were grabbed)
3) You could not get away using any escape methods once you were grabbed
4) Your cleric did not heal you, implying your group all failed their knowledge roll to learn the monsters abilities.

Conclusions: Point 1 was an error. Points 2-4 could have simply been bad luck (poor rolls) but you needed bad luck on the part of far too many people to really expect anything different. If I miss all my attacks in an encounter someone could die. In this case if everything was done to try and save the wizard AND he made the error of being up close and personal with a purple worm, well frankly he deserved to die. Thats the way the dice roll, adventuring is not a "safe" business.

Now whether or not the party should have been fighting something you required 18s to effect with basic abilities is another issue, and more one with the DM. It also makes those "poor luck rolls" far more likely and thus increase the chance of castrophe by a fair amount.

 

[DracoSuave]

Try targeting a wizard. He's easy to hit, easy to bloody, if he's used his teleport he can't escape the grab, and you're not going to miss the attack against his fortitude.

I reiterate. Thunderwave.

So you, the controller were grabbed, and got down to bloodied, no one healed you, you didn't escape the grasp, no one tried to shift or slide you, and no one thought 'hey, the wizard's in the mouth of a giant worm, maybe we should do something'

That took all of 2 rounds from the beast.

Round 1: Grab, cleric doesn't know that if I'm bloodied I get swallowed, so he waits to heal me just like he usually does. I couldn't possibly escape the grab with athletics or acrobatics, and I didn't roll the 20 I needed on my force orb to push it away. None of our ally-targeting movement effects that hadn't already been used could have pulled me out of the worm's reach.

Round 2: It bites me again so I'm bloodied, then action points to swallow me.

There were no mistakes made. Doing anything differently would have required using OOC knowledge which we didn't have (and wouldn't have used) so that the cleric would have known to heal me sooner.



Definitely. I'd rather get up and walk away from the table than sit there ineffectively for 2 hours.



Nope. He was nicer to me than the base rules would allow, because he gave me a chance to get healed from outside every now and then. If he'd played it as written I'd have died a lot sooner. Other than that, he played it right.



Tried that. I didn't roll the 18+ that my 12th level Wizard needs to hit a 14th level solo brute's fortitude defense. I don't know the monster's exact numbers, but I've got a +14 to hit (5 Int, 6 level, 3 implement). Assuming the worm was a straight deleveling per the DMG, it had a 32 Fort.

And once I was inside, there was nowhere to push it to (assuming I could have Thunderwaved, which I couldn't since it's not a basic attack).

Well, assuming the party has +14 to hit defenses, and +16 to hit other defenses... They'd need 15s or better to hit it unless they're hitting Will. Regardless, if your only possible out was a well placed thunderwave (and it is an out) then your cleric could have gotten in a to-hit buff, action points spent, etc. Wizard is grabbed, wizard uses thunderwave, stuns, things that negate the hold through -some- means. It's a tough situation, admittedly, but wizard gets in melee, wizard gets eaten. Hold some actions, open that can up, and start stacking attack bonuses in your favor. Get some flanking happening. That sort of thing. Make it so that you've got as many hit-buffs as you can get.

And the cleric -could- have healed you when the bite took you below your healing surge value and you were grabbed. It was reasonable to assume the next round would go the same. Grabbing opponents generally have a predictable next turn, which is usually do bad things to the grabbed enemy.


That said, the DM should have looked at the dice needed to hit the damn thing and thought 'You know, this isn't really a decent challenge for this party yet.' When enemies cross over the thresholds of levels 5, 10, 15, 20, etc, the math goes slightly off in encounters.

 

[charlesatan]

No, that's not a basic attack. If the wizard has magic missile he can use that, else it's just his staff if he's got one, or a dagger or crossbow.

Also, the wizard can't be force-moved because the restrained condition prevents that and only gets one escape attempt per turn due to the dazed condition.

Less clear is the effect of forced movement on the worm, but I would certainly think that works since there needs to be something that does. Again in this category, I am not sure that raising the wizard's HP value above bloodied technically helps... but a nice DM might say it does.

The poster meant using those abilities before the PC got swallowed (i.e. when he was grabbed), not after.

 

[Aloïsius]

IRL, being swallowed whole by a critter 20 times bigger than you means that you don't have a lot of options.

The problem is that with D&D :
1) PC are supposed to be able to win against any creature and have fun with it.
2) size does not matter at all.

So, what to do with a purple worm and similar monsters ? There are only three solutions :

1) make it as deadly as it should be. bite-grab-swallow means certain death. That's what I call "chtulhu realism". Next time, the PC will run away as they are supposed to do.
2) make it as puny as you think it should be to be funny. "yeah, your friend is in the jaw of a 50 tons monstruosity, you see him climbing out while punching its teeth !" "Ardorius, the wizard is still alive in the entrail of the beast, but a little wet...".
3) don't use purple worms.