Note to Self - Do NOT use an 'All Soldiers' encounter again....

[Holy Bovine]

I ran my regular 4E group this past Sunday and it was going great. A few hours of RP with 2 skill challenges thrown in and the players were well prepared for a little tussle. I had made a level 6 encounter (the party is 4th level with 6 players) with 6 Hobgoblin Commanders (Level 5 soldiers) and 2 Warcasters (level 3 Controllers). I expected the fight, which was in a cramped storage area with piles of crates and boxes that could be toppled during the fight and hit people, to last about an hour - all of our combats to this point (and there have been about 7) have lasted from 20 to 90 minutes (the 90 minute one was a huge battle between the party and undead & elemental creatures) so I figured this one would be about average.

Oh boy was I wrong!

I seriously under estimated the superior defenses a Soldier type gets and the party just could not lay a glove on these guys. The Warcasters worked beautifully but the Commanders were brutally boring and the fight dragged on for almost 2.5 hours! In the end one guy ran away & the last guy (who still had 40+ hp) I allowed to be knocked out with a single hit.

I've learned my lesson - a mix of roles is really best and I will certainly pay much closer attention int he future to the defenses and weaknesses of the creatures I use - the Level/Xp value does not always tell the whole story.

 

[eamon]

It's my impression that soldiers simply tend to be stronger than the other roles. They're hard to compare with controllers, but compared to brutes and lurkers, they tend to simply be stronger. If the party happens to have the right attacks, they might dispatch a group of soldiers easily; but that's not easy to control as a party, and soldier's non-AC defenses aren't worse than those of non-soldiers...

Anyone else feel soldiers specifically are stronger than the other roles?

 

[fba827]

Oddly enough, I was busy planning out an encounter last night and debating on the mix. I had not used soldiers much before but it was supposed to be a hard fight so I considered it. Once I saw the defense scores, I knew they would make for a tough fight.

What I basically decided, though, is that they are best used as a couple of guards for one of the important monsters or for the artillery. I agree that an "all soldier fight" would take forever.

But at the same time, they don't have area effects or such, so I wouldn't say they are out of the realm of appropriateness. Multiple soldiers are best used in parties with multiple defenders (to mark them and take their blows) and strikers (to wear them down).

 

[Stalker0]

If the party happens to have the right attacks, they might dispatch a group of soldiers easily; but that's not easy to control as a party, and soldier's non-AC defenses aren't worse than those of non-soldiers...

Anyone else feel soldiers specifically are stronger than the other roles?

Its important to note that several of the brutes in the core MM have been errated to gain an extra +1d6 damage or even more.

That said, soldiers are pretty tough. But as the OP noted, I don't think they are necessarily overpowered...it is just very time consuming to take them out.

 

[Gort]

What was your party makeup, out of interest? Often when these "combat takes too long!" threads come up it turns out the party has no strikers at all.

 

[Nebulous]

I've been finding that "mopping up" after a fight, when there's still a few enemies left on the board, but the PCs have undoubtedly won the battle, can get sort of tedious. Especially when seeming fodder like goblins or kobolds can still have many hit points in 4e.

I'll probably just start letting these guys die like a minion once the fight reaches that point.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't know if its soldiers in general, but some of my group's toughest fights have been against hobgoblins. They tend to have very high armor classes for the levels at which you first meet them. Your ability to kill them quickly tends to rely on getting around that AC somehow.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't know if its soldiers in general, but some of my group's toughest fights have been against hobgoblins. They tend to have very high armor classes for the levels at which you first meet them. Your ability to kill them quickly tends to rely on getting around that AC somehow.

Using powers and tactics to break them up is also very useful, as they get +2 to AC when adajacent to each other. Use bull rushing or forced movement powers to split them up and then pound on them can help.

 

[Nebulous]

I don't know if its soldiers in general, but some of my group's toughest fights have been against hobgoblins. They tend to have very high armor classes for the levels at which you first meet them. Your ability to kill them quickly tends to rely on getting around that AC somehow.

I'm a little worried about some upcoming fights in KotS; our group is getting used to mopping up goblins, and i already hinted to them that hobbers are real sons of bitches.

Using powers and tactics to break them up is also very useful, as they get +2 to AC when adajacent to each other. Use bull rushing or forced movement powers to split them up and then pound on them can help.

Agreed. The sooner they figure that out the better, or target a Defense weaker than AC.

 

[Keenath]

I had made a level 6 encounter (the party is 4th level with 6 players) with 6 Hobgoblin Commanders (Level 5 soldiers) and 2 Warcasters (level 3 Controllers).

<Mythbusters> Well, there's your problem. </mythbusters> A Commander isn't just a L5 soldier. It's a L5 soldier (leader)!

You put six leaders in the same fight. That's like a party made up entirely of clerics! Of COURSE the battle took forever! Commanders don't have ridiculous AC for their role and level, but their Phalanx power boosts it, and then they're practically immune to save-ends conditions, constantly shifting around, and giving each other a constant +2 to attack and damage...

Yeah, try that with some non-leader soldiers and you won't have this kind of problem. Soldiers and brutes, in my experience, last about the same duration in a fight (though hobbos do tend to be tougher than average), but a full leader party is gonna be a mess no matter what kind you pick.