Irda Ranger
First Post
Thank you for stating concisely what I said verbosely.
Dark Sun 4e: Can it work?
- Thread starter Knightfall
- Start date
Nahat Anoj
First Post
From what I am led to believe, the PHB2 will have a divine controller (maybe called a theurge, thaumaturgist, or, perhaps, templar).
Gladiators could be a new class, but I suspect they'll come up with a new "gladiator fighter" build or use the tempest fighter build.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
No, but primal is, and considering the changes to the planar lore, I think primal = elemental anyway.
Templars started out slower with spellcasting (no spells at all at first level), but at really high levels (15+ or so) outperformed regular clerics. They also had access to all weapons, which Dark Sun clerics did not (air clerics could only use spears and ranged weapons; fire clerics could only use flaming weapons or those made of obsidian; earth clerics could use any weapon made of stone, obsidian, wood, or metal - but not bone; and water clerics were limited to weapons made of once-living materials like wood and bone).
Their biggest advantage, mechanics-wise, was that they had Major access to all spheres of priest magic (Dark Sun used a different sphere scheme than regular 2e, where spells that were associated with a specific element were classified as that element, and all others came under the general heading of Cosmos). Elemental clerics only had major access to their elemental sphere, and minor access (up to 3rd level spells) to Cosmos. That meant that regular clerics couldn't cast any healing spells more powerful than Cure Light Wounds (and Moderate if you used Spells & Magic).
If you used the level 20+ rules from Dragon Kings, templars were screwed, however. Their whole post-20 advancement could be summed up as "none." Sorcerer-kings don't like it if their servants get too powerful.
Silverblade The Ench
First Post
Dark Sun must be kept very different form usual campaign settings or, you destroy what made Athas a great place to play in!
*NO* dragonborn or tieflings at all, unless DM has them somehow come through a planar gate, and note, Dray are not dragonborn, almost no one who has seen one has lived, they do not wander across Athas, ever.
Read up on 'emm and see why
Dray hide out in Draegoth's underground realm.
Again, Dark Sun is different, making it "blend into officialnormal 4th ed D&D" would ruin it, mak eit bland, make it...non-profitable
Dark SUn is harsh, hard, deadly: TOUGH. DEAL WITH IT! That's what makes it such a fun place!
Using smarts, people skills, running away!! are damned good ideas in Athasian campaigns, this should be emphasized.
Ok, how to make Athas for 4th ed:
Stick to original boxed set, let most of the rest rot/be ignored, as much of it was garbage after that point (like whacking half the bloody Sorceror Kings in 2 RL years, ridiculous waste of prime part of the bloody setting!)
Duen Trader and some others add-ons had really nice stuff, but ignore "The Last Sea", "Dragon Kings" and so on, I know some folk love 'em but they are poison for the setting, they take it into "silly-over-powered-explaining-too-much-mystery" realms. Seriously.
1) Only the official, original races should be emphasized, rules for Pterrans etdc as side notes or whatever, as they should strongly be discouraged from play to begin with...why? Athasians tend to eat pterrans, for starters
It' snot wrong to play different Athasian races, but, folk have got to get used ot the idea thatthey are not "human rules laywers over powered quisinardes"...liek thw afore mentioned thri-kreen
The RP aspectsof the races are really important. Like halflings' cannibalism and no sense of greed.
Half-Giants have got to be large creatures, end of story, read their description: 10' tall 1,500lb behemoths, but pretty thick and naive.
You cannot change that, or they are merley "big humans", totlaly the wrong thing to do for Athasian games.
Everyoen knows half-giants cna beat the tar out of most folk with ease...but they are thick as cow-flop and thus fall prey to congames and psionics.
I know 4th ed avoids ECLs and penalty stats, but I'd give them +6 Strength/Con, -4 int/wis/cha, Large size, no racial abilities.
Their alignment change didn't make too much sense as presented in original rules really, as it's an RP aspect, they only change *when they have good reason to*, by the example of folk they admire. So, they'd change over time or impressive event etc.
2) Ditch the concept of the "gladiator" and "templar" classes, never made sense anyway, those are professions. It's a job, not a D&D class
However, adding rules for Templars burecratic powers, and gladiator fame/infamy would be very good.
Note those two things are not directly linked to "D&D levels" and should not be.
The devious templar with a modicum of spell casting power, but who's a "braniac" with an army of spies is probably more powerful in reality, than an 18th level templar who's a loner.
Templars are servants of ther sorceror-kings, and are usually clerics, the SK's are like gods to them, thus they have cleric powers..simple easy end of that worry.
Treat templars as clerics. But give them different paths: power, control, evil, war, bureacracy, law...those are their routes.
THough note many templars are bureacrats, experts, spy-masters etc. Less about how high a level spell they can cast, more about being devious, dangerous SOBs with guards.
So, paragon paths and feats reflecting that would be good!
Gladiators are just arena combatants of *any* type. Making a pargon path for pit fighter, retarii, bestiarii, psionic area fighter etc be cool too.
3) Defilers are more powerful than normal wizards, end of story!!
The defilers have beaten the preservers , because the SK's, who are uber-defilers, rule.
So defilers should get powers/feat that make them more powerful, but pay the price in destorying life,and being marked for death, as everyone hates defilers and kills 'em on sight if they can (an RP issue)
-It never made sense that Athasian arcane magic was tied ot life, ie, preservers can cast all day in a desert...explain that one, with almost no life! Doesn't make sense, does it?
So, remove that concept of "arcane magic uses life force", instead, reinforce that defilers leech the life out of things to bolster their arcane powers.
Big difference, and that change solvesall the concerns: defilers stumbled upon a "cheat"...the reaosn this doens't show up in otherworlds is it rquires the presence of psionics too (either in the world,or limit defiling to wizards who take psionics as multiclass feat?)
IIRC someone suggested Defilers get an encounter power that by
4) The mechanics need to encompasse non-standard materials, like obsidian spears, chitin scale mail etc.
As I explained to someone elsewhere, you cannot and must not "make non-metal weapons as good as metal weapons, and make metal wepaons better!",
sigh
if you do that, you unbalance the whole game's mechanics. Athas is weighted AGAINST you as a player....good! Tough, deal with it, enjoy it!
Makes finding steel weapons the treasures they should be.
Many items I think could be made as good as otherworlds', using psionics, and crafting techniques/materials that have evolved over millenia, or materials that don't exist elsewhere (agafari wood for example).
So, you could have steel equivalent items, but not common and costly.
Example: "Braxathide Plate Armour"
Easy to say this as a rule:
Obsidian weapons should get a +1 damage bonus, as that stuff's horrendously sharp, eek!
5) heat exhaustion rules as per disease tracking!
different tracks for different extremities of heat/silt/dust.
6) Sorceror Kings should be demi-god or higher in power. Players should not be able to harm them until high in upper tier, ie lvl 25+.
SKs = true terrors!
And the Dragon...Dragon shuold scare everyone Make it almost unkillable by a lvl 30 party.
7) The Elemental Chaos works *perfectly* for Athas! the Abyss did have links ot Athas (it's how two players in my campaign escaped to Sigil...long story). As other snoted, examples of demons and planar gates arein Athasian lore (bringing githyanki in was a bit too much IMHO, though)
having the elemental chaos be accessible is great, though I would make it more difficult than normal, especially to escape Athas (sort of Ravenloft-like).
8) Tweak cleric paths/powers so the 4 elements are large part of it.
9) Make an actual "desert RANGER" class, current 4th ed "ranger" is more of "light armour high damage" fighter, where as, in Athas, survival is a bloody important skill!!
ie, the tracking/wilderness type skills need plugged back into that class, or a new class?
10) Psionics book for D&D has ot be out before or during Dark Sun release. Psionics is absolutley essential to Dark Sun.
11) In my Dark SUn games, I had it that the history was very mysterious and mostly lost in legend and myth, but that the mind lfayers had tried ot darken the Sun, screwed up, sent the Sun into a nova-cycle.
The gods stopped that, but resulting cataclysm still wrecked the Astral plane severing Athas from the Planes and it's gods.
All the psionic powers are a result of the mind flayer's meddling in aeons past (to make a source of energy to tap).
This not only makes a lot more sense than the flop that is the official history, it works with other D&D lore, lol.
So, erase the "official" histroy completely, it just suuuuucks. Have the history of Athas a total mystery, or as I had it. Nic big "retcon", let DM's do what the heck they want wth Athas!
having the "true" history of Athas known, ruins the mystery.
STOP ruining the mystery!!
This is a general note to game creators and DMs. No mystery, no "Unknowns" = no fear...
that's my 2 cents worth
Ps, I'm no Brom, but they can use my artwork if they want!
*NO* dragonborn or tieflings at all, unless DM has them somehow come through a planar gate, and note, Dray are not dragonborn, almost no one who has seen one has lived, they do not wander across Athas, ever.
Read up on 'emm and see why
Dray hide out in Draegoth's underground realm.Again, Dark Sun is different, making it "blend into officialnormal 4th ed D&D" would ruin it, mak eit bland, make it...non-profitable
Dark SUn is harsh, hard, deadly: TOUGH. DEAL WITH IT! That's what makes it such a fun place!
Using smarts, people skills, running away!! are damned good ideas in Athasian campaigns, this should be emphasized.
Ok, how to make Athas for 4th ed:
Stick to original boxed set, let most of the rest rot/be ignored, as much of it was garbage after that point (like whacking half the bloody Sorceror Kings in 2 RL years, ridiculous waste of prime part of the bloody setting!)
Duen Trader and some others add-ons had really nice stuff, but ignore "The Last Sea", "Dragon Kings" and so on, I know some folk love 'em but they are poison for the setting, they take it into "silly-over-powered-explaining-too-much-mystery" realms. Seriously.
1) Only the official, original races should be emphasized, rules for Pterrans etdc as side notes or whatever, as they should strongly be discouraged from play to begin with...why? Athasians tend to eat pterrans, for starters
It' snot wrong to play different Athasian races, but, folk have got to get used ot the idea thatthey are not "human rules laywers over powered quisinardes"...liek thw afore mentioned thri-kreen
The RP aspectsof the races are really important. Like halflings' cannibalism and no sense of greed.
Half-Giants have got to be large creatures, end of story, read their description: 10' tall 1,500lb behemoths, but pretty thick and naive.
You cannot change that, or they are merley "big humans", totlaly the wrong thing to do for Athasian games.
Everyoen knows half-giants cna beat the tar out of most folk with ease...but they are thick as cow-flop and thus fall prey to congames and psionics.
I know 4th ed avoids ECLs and penalty stats, but I'd give them +6 Strength/Con, -4 int/wis/cha, Large size, no racial abilities.
Their alignment change didn't make too much sense as presented in original rules really, as it's an RP aspect, they only change *when they have good reason to*, by the example of folk they admire. So, they'd change over time or impressive event etc.
2) Ditch the concept of the "gladiator" and "templar" classes, never made sense anyway, those are professions. It's a job, not a D&D class
However, adding rules for Templars burecratic powers, and gladiator fame/infamy would be very good.
Note those two things are not directly linked to "D&D levels" and should not be.
The devious templar with a modicum of spell casting power, but who's a "braniac" with an army of spies is probably more powerful in reality, than an 18th level templar who's a loner.
Templars are servants of ther sorceror-kings, and are usually clerics, the SK's are like gods to them, thus they have cleric powers..simple easy end of that worry.
Treat templars as clerics. But give them different paths: power, control, evil, war, bureacracy, law...those are their routes.
THough note many templars are bureacrats, experts, spy-masters etc. Less about how high a level spell they can cast, more about being devious, dangerous SOBs with guards.
So, paragon paths and feats reflecting that would be good!
Gladiators are just arena combatants of *any* type. Making a pargon path for pit fighter, retarii, bestiarii, psionic area fighter etc be cool too.
3) Defilers are more powerful than normal wizards, end of story!!
The defilers have beaten the preservers , because the SK's, who are uber-defilers, rule.
So defilers should get powers/feat that make them more powerful, but pay the price in destorying life,and being marked for death, as everyone hates defilers and kills 'em on sight if they can (an RP issue)
-It never made sense that Athasian arcane magic was tied ot life, ie, preservers can cast all day in a desert...explain that one, with almost no life!
Doesn't make sense, does it?So, remove that concept of "arcane magic uses life force", instead, reinforce that defilers leech the life out of things to bolster their arcane powers.
Big difference, and that change solvesall the concerns: defilers stumbled upon a "cheat"...the reaosn this doens't show up in otherworlds is it rquires the presence of psionics too (either in the world,or limit defiling to wizards who take psionics as multiclass feat?)
IIRC someone suggested Defilers get an encounter power that by
Something like that be great.
4) The mechanics need to encompasse non-standard materials, like obsidian spears, chitin scale mail etc.
As I explained to someone elsewhere, you cannot and must not "make non-metal weapons as good as metal weapons, and make metal wepaons better!",
sigh
if you do that, you unbalance the whole game's mechanics. Athas is weighted AGAINST you as a player....good! Tough, deal with it, enjoy it!
Makes finding steel weapons the treasures they should be.
Many items I think could be made as good as otherworlds', using psionics, and crafting techniques/materials that have evolved over millenia, or materials that don't exist elsewhere (agafari wood for example).
So, you could have steel equivalent items, but not common and costly.
Example: "Braxathide Plate Armour"
Easy to say this as a rule:
Notes in equipment tables would show which ones require metal, like swords, halberds, axes, etc. Spears, arrows and daggers with flint/obsidian blades work perfectly well, as opposite examples.
Obsidian weapons should get a +1 damage bonus, as that stuff's horrendously sharp, eek!
5) heat exhaustion rules as per disease tracking!
different tracks for different extremities of heat/silt/dust.
6) Sorceror Kings should be demi-god or higher in power. Players should not be able to harm them until high in upper tier, ie lvl 25+.
SKs = true terrors!
And the Dragon...Dragon shuold scare everyone
Make it almost unkillable by a lvl 30 party.7) The Elemental Chaos works *perfectly* for Athas!
the Abyss did have links ot Athas (it's how two players in my campaign escaped to Sigil...long story). As other snoted, examples of demons and planar gates arein Athasian lore (bringing githyanki in was a bit too much IMHO, though)having the elemental chaos be accessible is great, though I would make it more difficult than normal, especially to escape Athas (sort of Ravenloft-like).
8) Tweak cleric paths/powers so the 4 elements are large part of it.
9) Make an actual "desert RANGER" class, current 4th ed "ranger" is more of "light armour high damage" fighter, where as, in Athas, survival is a bloody important skill!!
ie, the tracking/wilderness type skills need plugged back into that class, or a new class?
10) Psionics book for D&D has ot be out before or during Dark Sun release. Psionics is absolutley essential to Dark Sun.
11) In my Dark SUn games, I had it that the history was very mysterious and mostly lost in legend and myth, but that the mind lfayers had tried ot darken the Sun, screwed up, sent the Sun into a nova-cycle.
The gods stopped that, but resulting cataclysm still wrecked the Astral plane severing Athas from the Planes and it's gods.
All the psionic powers are a result of the mind flayer's meddling in aeons past (to make a source of energy to tap).
This not only makes a lot more sense than the flop that is the official history
, it works with other D&D lore, lol.So, erase the "official" histroy completely, it just suuuuucks. Have the history of Athas a total mystery, or as I had it. Nic big "retcon", let DM's do what the heck they want wth Athas!
having the "true" history of Athas known, ruins the mystery.
STOP ruining the mystery!!
This is a general note to game creators and DMs. No mystery, no "Unknowns" = no fear...
that's my 2 cents worth
Ps, I'm no Brom, but they can use my artwork if they want!
Last edited:
brehobit
Explorer
Trying again.
Other than the thri-kreen (which was just silly) I felt the races and classes were each very useful. Each member of the game could do something "massive" but each tended to have a huge weakness. The half-giant was dumb as a brick, couldn't hide from things. A water cleric was often the most useful member of the party, but was moderate in most fights (but damn popular with PCs and NPCs). Etc.
4e (and 3e before it) are so much more about making sure each party member is "equal" in a fight. And 4e (which I like a lot) has taken this to a new extreme. It works fairly well, but I don't think a design goal of having the water cleric be as good in a bar fight as the half-giant is a reasonable goal for Dark Sun. Everyone _should_ be scared of the half-giant hitting them. That means he, like a flame thrower, attracts a lot of attention in a fight. _and_ he has a glass jaw: a will attack is very likely to take him out.
Dark Sun 2e had its "balance". But the balance was that overall, everyone had a role and everyone could do something that no one else could (lift a wagon, create water, cast a spell vs. will to take out the other half-giant, etc.) In otherwords, the "roles" in 4e taken to an extreme and including a bit of non-combat stuff.
M.L. Martin
Hero
It will be, according to the PH, p. 54. I expect to see PHIII cover Elemental and Psionic Heroes, tying into a 2010 Dark Sun rerelease, but that's just a hypothesis.
I seem to remember seeing a bit from WoTC--I'm not sure where--about how power sources can be selected to help distinguish a campaign setting. Thus, I expect Ari's concerns about the cleric, paladin and other divine classes will be irrelevant--the DSCG will probably open by stating "Available Power Sources: Arcane, Elemental, Martial, Psionic." (Possibly Primal and Shadow--I don't know enough about Athas to guess on those.)
(A Ravenloft campaign would definitely include Arcane, Divine, Martial and Shadow, probably Primal and Psionic, and maybe Elemental and Ki. Dragonlance would be limited to the three from the PH1 and maybe Primal.)
Having DMed a 2e group that included a thri-kreen water cleric/psionicist, I have to disagree.
Sure, half-giants should be really scary in melee. That doesn't mean that they can't be balanced against other races, although WotC so far has shown a general lack of imagination WRT using more powerful races as player races. But it's definitely possible IMO.As for classes that suck in a fight, well 4e doesn't support that and that's fine. Not that I ever thought water clerics were hamstrung in a fight... certainly not the psychometabolized-up thri-kreen variety... A cleric's role in a fight is mainly as a buffer and a healer, and they do some damage on the side. They're "balanced" with the massively strong greataxe-wielding brute in the party, but they're not doing the same thing and not puting out the same damage.
Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
Yep, I could see Warforged as a throwback creation of the Green Age. I'd say the creation of one is a lost art but perhaps one of the Sorcerer Kings uncovers the lost process of making one. I could see a war of intrigue erupting as the other Sorcerer Kings try to steal the knowledge for themselves while strike forces of assassins attack templars and city guards.
What I mean is, 4E seems designed to take your focus off the world (which is only a backdrop) and place it on the battle mat. So it seems that 4E probably lends itself to a perfunctory setting... how can you take seriously the minutiae of the Genuvian Behemoth (a giant sand fauna that I just made up) when the halfling can shove it around with a dagger? 4E takes the rules of tactical minis combat on a square grid battle map and canonizes them into the game setting, which pretty much means that the setting itself has to be minimal (since for setting details to be meaningful they have to be relatively consistent).
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