When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

[Andor]

Can we please stop talking about Ari and go back to Edition Wars?

For my milage: WotC probably formed 4e based on customer feedback, but that doesn't mean that the release went exactly as planned.

I think it's worse than that. From editing errors, bad examples, and unclear verbiage I think it's very evident that 4e was in no way a finished product by the time the 'send to printer' deadline rolled around. I suspect if you could corner the design team in a bar they would admit that 4e, as was printed, wasn't even what they wanted. What makes me sad is that WotC, the 800lb gorilla of the RPG world, couldn't do the right thing and delay release until they actually had a product they were proud of.

That said a lot of people seem happy with what we did get. I'm sad to say I'm not one of them. I'd love to love 4e, but I can't. It seems like an overly inbred game. I can see where design influences drew on elements of crpgs, tactical crpgs, board games, minis, and ccgs, and there is nothing wrong with that. However all of those things drew on D&D in the first place and the design became so insular, so reiterative that it feels like it has no roots outside of games as games. When 3e was designed they had a list of sacred cows to make sure it remained D&D. 4e not only ignored the sacred cows of D&D they forgot that at it's heart an RPG, any RPG, (unlike many of the other game formats that informed 4e design) is a tool that portrays the actions and mechanics of a world so that we can sit down with dice and cheetos and coke and tell stories of adventures in that world. When they lost contact with that as their touchstone I'm afraid they lost me as their target market.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think it's worse than that. From editing errors, bad examples, and unclear verbiage I think it's very evident that 4e was in no way a finished product by the time the 'send to printer' deadline rolled around. I suspect if you could corner the design team in a bar they would admit that 4e, as was printed, wasn't even what they wanted. What makes me sad is that WotC, the 800lb gorilla of the RPG world, couldn't do the right thing and delay release until they actually had a product they were proud of.

That said a lot of people seem happy with what we did get. I'm sad to say I'm not one of them. I'd love to love 4e, but I can't. It seems like an overly inbred game. I can see where design influences drew on elements of crpgs, tactical crpgs, board games, minis, and ccgs, and there is nothing wrong with that. However all of those things drew on D&D in the first place and the design became so insular, so reiterative that it feels like it has no roots outside of games as games. When 3e was designed they had a list of sacred cows to make sure it remained D&D. 4e not only ignored the sacred cows of D&D they forgot that at it's heart an RPG, any RPG, (unlike many of the other game formats that informed 4e design) is a tool that portrays the actions and mechanics of a world so that we can sit down with dice and cheetos and coke and tell stories of adventures in that world. When they lost contact with that as their touchstone I'm afraid they lost me as their target market.

3E was just as bad in terms of editing errors, bad examples, and unclear verbiage, especially the splats. As for the inbredness, it can't be worse than 3E, which tried to be both a class-based and a classless system at the same time, and tried to incorporate all facets of RPGdom, be them gamist, simulationist, or whatever simultaneously.

 

[Hussar]

Just as I had feared.

I guess we share a pet.

Heh, this is a little idea that's been bouncing around in my head since before 4e hit the shelves. I look at it like this:

• 4e was playtested by the RPGA
• Many of the changes done in late 3e were informed by RPGA play
• While I don't think 4e gets in the way of world building, it doesn't really help that much either - and since RPGA play doesn't require world building....
• The DDI VTT will be a huge draw for the RPGA
• Very exacting language
• Very concerned by class balance
• Ejecting races that were ... underplayed
• Including races that were more played (Hey, it's not a secret why the Iconics for Paizo's Age of Worms included a Tiefling)
• Expanded rules for covering role play experience awards
• Streamlining rules to allow easier DMing

There's likely more, but that's what I can think of right now.

So, to me, if 4e turns you off, it's likely because you weren't a target for RPGA play either. Or, rather, you don't play like people play in the RPGA. If you like 4e, likely your playstyles were more in keeping with how the RPGA functioned at the table.

Honestly, from a corporate standpoint, I think WOTC's idea is full of win. If they can hook just 10% of the RPGA into the DDI VTT, that's about 15000 players. That's a smidgeon under 3000 groups, or to put it another way, an RPGA game starting every 5 minutes 24/7. That's a massive draw for D&D. If this works, they've solved the issues with physically getting groups together. And they'll make a ton of money doing it as well.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Heh, this is a little idea that's been bouncing around in my head since before 4e hit the shelves. I look at it like this:

• 4e was playtested by the RPGA
• Many of the changes done in late 3e were informed by RPGA play
• While I don't think 4e gets in the way of world building, it doesn't really help that much either - and since RPGA play doesn't require world building....
• The DDI VTT will be a huge draw for the RPGA
• Very exacting language
• Very concerned by class balance
• Ejecting races that were ... underplayed
• Including races that were more played (Hey, it's not a secret why the Iconics for Paizo's Age of Worms included a Tiefling)
• Expanded rules for covering role play experience awards
• Streamlining rules to allow easier DMing

There's likely more, but that's what I can think of right now.

So, to me, if 4e turns you off, it's likely because you weren't a target for RPGA play either. Or, rather, you don't play like people play in the RPGA. If you like 4e, likely your playstyles were more in keeping with how the RPGA functioned at the table.

Honestly, from a corporate standpoint, I think WOTC's idea is full of win. If they can hook just 10% of the RPGA into the DDI VTT, that's about 15000 players. That's a smidgeon under 3000 groups, or to put it another way, an RPGA game starting every 5 minutes 24/7. That's a massive draw for D&D. If this works, they've solved the issues with physically getting groups together. And they'll make a ton of money doing it as well.

To me, this is stretching things a bit. I would say that this perception is more a case of 3.5E being badly suited for the RPGA then 4E being designed for it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

3E ... and tried to incorporate all facets of RPGdom, be them gamist, simulationist, or whatever simultaneously.

What's your criticism of 3e here in regards to incorporating all facets of RPGdom? This seems to be an inclusive policy so I'm not exactly getting where you're coming from. Is there something wrong with this?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[thecasualoblivion]

What's your criticism of 3e here in regards to incorporating all facets of RPGdom? This seems to be an inclusive policy so I'm not exactly getting where you're coming from. Is there something wrong with this?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

In my opinion, trying to include everything waters the game down and makes it cumbersome. A tighter, more focused game runs smoother and does what it aims to do more successfully.

 

[justanobody]

I think you just won the edition wars. Or found the key to a peace accord?

Something like that, anyway.

There will be no peace as long as his US citizenship, and eligibility to run for office is in question!

Oh, wait! Wrong thread, wrong forum.

Some know what they want to the extreme, and that may be our problem. Not that we don't like change, but don't agree with the changes made or who made them.

Sad but true.

I think the only one that will ever win the edition wars is the copyright holder, as they can put out as many editions as will bring them in the last $1 until they get tired of it.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

The way I see it is that some people want one thing, while others want something different and exclusive. D&D has chosen a single path, and this path will displease some people.

 

[haakon1]

Are you not interested in the game or are you not buying because you think they aren't listening to you?

Both. Age 39, and in the same boat. Most likely, the 4e PHB I bought on the same day will be the last WOTC product I buy. <shrug>

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Heh, this is a little idea that's been bouncing around in my head since before 4e hit the shelves. I look at it like this:

• 4e was playtested by the RPGA
• Many of the changes done in late 3e were informed by RPGA play
• While I don't think 4e gets in the way of world building, it doesn't really help that much either - and since RPGA play doesn't require world building....
• The DDI VTT will be a huge draw for the RPGA
• Very exacting language
• Very concerned by class balance
• Ejecting races that were ... underplayed
• Including races that were more played (Hey, it's not a secret why the Iconics for Paizo's Age of Worms included a Tiefling)
• Expanded rules for covering role play experience awards
• Streamlining rules to allow easier DMing

There's likely more, but that's what I can think of right now.

So, to me, if 4e turns you off, it's likely because you weren't a target for RPGA play either. Or, rather, you don't play like people play in the RPGA. If you like 4e, likely your playstyles were more in keeping with how the RPGA functioned at the table.

Honestly, from a corporate standpoint, I think WOTC's idea is full of win. If they can hook just 10% of the RPGA into the DDI VTT, that's about 15000 players. That's a smidgeon under 3000 groups, or to put it another way, an RPGA game starting every 5 minutes 24/7. That's a massive draw for D&D. If this works, they've solved the issues with physically getting groups together. And they'll make a ton of money doing it as well.

You could very well be right. i did not know the numbers for RPGA before reading your posts, but given those numbers I'm covinced of your case and I also know 7 or 8 older gamers would sigh up for DDI to get back in touch with old gamer buddys would be an added bonus for WoTC.
Also a subscription model would give a more predictable revenuw stream than the current one.