When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

[Snoweel]

Don't forget the fact that the players play the game primarily by talking. They are already far more engaged with the mechanics of resolving a negotiation encounter than they are with resolving a combat encounter.

Thus, negotiation requires less scope in its arbitration mechanics than does combat; which by its nature is far removed from the actions of the players sitting around the table.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

4e doesn't really think negotiations are that important, or they would've designed the game with it in mind like they designed it with sneak attack in mind.

You mean like the Skill Challenge section in the DMG where they describe in detail a negotiation between the characters and a duke? And its not just between the "face" and the duke, the sample negotiation encounter involves the whole party.

 

[I'm A Banana]

the PHB opens with a chapter on roleplaying and character building, the DMG has very little actual rules crunch, but a lot on world building, roleplaying, DMing a complete game (including an extensive section on building your game to reflect your players interests and playstyles), handling non combat encounters. They even provide mechanical weight to roleplaying through the skill challenge system.

All that verbiage does very little if the game doesn't pay attention to it in mechanics, and 3e paid more attention to it than 4e does, thus encouraging it more (I outlined a few of the ways it did that above).

Can you go a session or two or three or four without a Skill Challenge? Can you go that same length of time without a combat?

There's also the point that the Skill Challenge is mechanically a bit unhinged, so that if you are using it a lot, you will start to notice imbalance. And that the open-ended nature of it rarely enhances the idea of a noncombat archetype, being that you can use many diverse skills to accomplish the same goal.

Granted, if you ignore the fact that all classes can now be effective negotiators and are not limited due to skill points and cross class skill limits, and that the skill challenge system allows for skills other than diplomacy, intimidate and bluff to be used in said negotiation.

All classes being effective and other skills being useful is kind of like giving all characters the healing powers of a Leader, the marking abilties of a Defender, the area-effect of the Controller, and the damage output of a Striker and saying everything is good.

It's a valid design choice, but it lacks a certain variety that the defined roles contribute. A lack of variety in the rules implies that it isn't often to be used, because it's going to require more work to make it more interesting in repeated usage.

And it certainly reduces variety (however flawed) from 3e, stepping away from these character details in favor of a sort of noncombat socialism of equally distributed skill.

Don't forget the fact that the players play the game primarily by talking. They are already far more engaged with the mechanics of resolving a negotiation encounter than they are with resolving a combat encounter.

Thus, negotiation requires less scope in its arbitration mechanics than does combat; which by its nature is far removed from the actions of the players sitting around the table.

If I don't have mechanics for how my character performs these things I'm talking about, I'm less inclined to waste time talking about them. If spouting haikus is important for my fighter, I want to represent that without having to be a master of spontaneous haiku myself, while still having the detail that makes me feel like that is important.

Basically, just talking about it isn't good enough, if it's important to me. I want to play the game, which involves using the mechanics, and if there's no "talk mechanics," then talking doesn't seem to be part of the game, and it gets ignored.

You mean like the Skill Challenge section in the DMG where they describe in detail a negotiation between the characters and a duke? And its not just between the "face" and the duke, the sample negotiation encounter involves the whole party.

No, I mean like allowing my negotiation skills to come to the fore several times in every session by weaving them into the fabric of the game like Sneak Attack does.

Skill Challenge is okay if you don't look too closely at it, but if you try to make noncombat a big part of your game, it quickly shows itself to be in need of fixing, and lacking in variety and strategy.

Unlike, say, combat, which works pretty well, and has a lot of variety and strategy.

Also unlike 3e, which at least had mechanical variety in the kinds of things you could do outside of combat, and where I could make a fighter with Perform (haiku) who was truly made different by that skill.

Why fix Sneak Attack but not Diplomacy, Craft, Perform, Profession, or a host of other skills? In my book, it's because they thought SA was more important. This leads to a game where SA is usually the better, more entertaining, more balanced option to resolve an encounter than Diplomacy is. A more combat-focused game.

It's not a direct force, but it's something of an invisible, guiding hand. Which is part of why it doesn't fit me as well as 3e did, in the non-combat department (especially given that 3e had 8 years of development and 3rd party supplements to enhance this angle, while 4e doesn't quite have any of that, at the moment).

 

[thecasualoblivion]

People complaining about noncombat things in 4E keep complaining about skills. Either, bizarre lame corner case skills(haiku) or greater skill specialization(skill monkey/diplomancer classes?). 3E core really didn't have any more mechanics on skill use than 4E does, and 4E's skill system is easier to use/build characters with and is far more inclusive of the entire party. I really don't see the complaint here.

Whining about the 4E skill system as compared to 3E is dancing around the real argument, and what people are really missing. That is the removal of 3E noncombat SPELLS. Not ritual type problem-solving, but spells that can be cast quickly in a tactical noncombat/social situation.

In other words, complaining about how they miss spellcasters having a bag of "I win" buttons outside of combat as well as inside. Nobody has specifically said this, but I'm pretty sure this is at the core of the 4E noncombat "problem".

However much nonspellcasters were overshadowed by spellcasters in combat, outside of combat it was much worse. Skills and the odd class feature weren't even on the same planet as utility spells.

 

[Windjammer]

Skill Challenge is okay if you don't look too closely at it, but if you try to make noncombat a big part of your game, it quickly shows itself to be in need of fixing, and lacking in variety and strategy.

How dare you imply that 5 players rolling d20 + a fixed ability stat (+5 if trained) under the name of 17 entries is less varied and challenging than 300 combat powers with highly varied effects and conditions? Also, your claim is easily devalidated by having a look at the extent of creative development skill challenges have seen in the past 5 months in Dungeon magazine. Repetition of old material in the DMG? Non existant.

Interrogation/Negotiation: roll high on Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight, or Intimidate!

• Interrogate a captive (Social); Level 1, Complexity 2, 200XP, Dungeon 156 (Rescue at Rivenroar), page 17
• Interrogate a captured monster for specific information (Social); Level 12, Complexity 2, (1400XP); Dungeon 156 (Kincep Mansion), ‘Development’ page 49
• Questioning Cultist Townsfolk (Social); Level 8, Complexity 1, (350XP); Dungeon 156 (Last Breath of Ashenport), sidebar page 79
• Questioning Cultists in Temple (Social); Level 8, Complexity 1, (350XP); Dungeon 156 (Last Breath of Ashenport) sidebar page 82
• Gain assistance from an NPC (Social); Level 1, Complexity 2, 200XP; Dungeon 156 (Rescue at Rivenroar), page 16
• Negotiate terms of adventuring contract (Social); Level 3, Complexity 2, (300XP); Dungeon 157 (Siege of Bordrin) ‘Slow Start’ page 9
• Interview/Investigate 4 Eladrin nobles suspected of corruption/treason while attending a party (Social); Level 12, Complexity 4 (2,800XP with chances for additional XP). Note: The adventure describes this as really 4 separate skill challenges rolled into one. Dungeon 157 (Dark Heart of Mithrendain)
• “Initial Negotiation: The Mayor”; Negotiate for more money and supplies from a prospective employer (Social); Level 3, Complexity 2 (500XP), Dungeon 158 (Tariff of Relkingham) Page 87
• “Negotiation: Founder Neelani”; Convince a religious leader to change her mind (Social); Level 3, Complexity 2 (500XP), Dungeon 158 (Tariff of Relkingham) Page 88
• “Distrustful Villagers”; Convince “angry” villager mob to let you go without a fight (Social); Level 3, Complexity 5 (806XP) Note: normally a challenge of that level/complexity should be 750XP. It is giving more to account for the higher gains of actually fighting, so that both options grant the same XP reward. Dungeon 158 (Tariff of Relkingham)

Gather Information: roll high on Streetwise!

• Discreetly gather information from cultists; Level 5, Difficulty 3, 600XP; Dungeon 155 (Heathen), page 44
• Gather information from frightened miners about disappearances (Social); Level 12, Complexity 1 (700XP), Dungeon 157 (Depths of Avarice) Page 59
• Gather information from an unfriendly town (Social); Level 8, Complexity 2 (700XP), Dungeon 157 (Massacre at Fort Dolor)
• Canvas a city looking for information about a person, and receive mostly prefab rumors (Social); Level 4, Complexity 4, 700XP; Dungeon 158 (Shadow Rift), Page 11
• Canvas a city looking for information, and receive prefab rumors (Social); Level 6, Complexity 4 (1,000XP), Dungeon 158 (Shadow Rift) Page 27

Wilderness: roll high on Nature and Endurance!

• Follow an NPC’s trail across the borderlands; Level 5, Difficulty 5, 1,000XP; Dungeon 155 (Heathen), page 32
• Track goblins to their mountain lair; Level 1, Complexity 3, 300XP; Dungeon 156 (Rescue at Rivenroar), page 18
• Travel between 2 known towns; Level 1, Complexity 1, 100XP, Dungeon 156 (Rescue at Rivenroar), sidebar page 20
• Navigate mountains while heading to a monastery; Level 3, Complexity 1, (150XP); Dungeon 157 (Siege of Bordrin) page 27
• Find a system of tunnels deep in a mountain; Level 3, Complexity 2, (300XP); Dungeon 157 (Siege of Bordrin) page 40
• Find a Kuo-Toa lair under the sea; Level 15, Complexity 1 (1,200XP), Dungeon 158 (Sea Reavers) Page 64
• Sneak into a city and make your way inside a castle; Level 16, Complexity 1 (1,400XP), Dungeon 158 (Sea Reavers) Page 78
• “The Blizzard”; Make your way through a magically created blizzard; Level 2, Complexity 3 (375XP), Dungeon 158 (Menace of Icy Spire) Page 8

 

[Fifth Element]

The level of attention the Striker role is paid in the rules obviously, overwhelmingly, trumps the amount of attention that a character designed to be a Negotiator gets.

A Striker has a way to contribute to every combat, in every session.

A Negotiator might not get to roll a Persuasion check for months at a time, depending on the campaign.

There's a disconnect there that doesn't need to be there.

I do see what you're saying, and it is an interesting thought. I think I'll fork it to a new thread to discuss.

Edit: forked thread is here http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...zards-coasts-target-audience.html#post4526065.

 

[Aluvial]

Since the release of 4E, and most recently in some threads about the upcoming change in the D&D miniatures lines, I've read many times (not always in direct response to me) that "you aren't WotC's target audience, so they don't really care what you think."

I bought every 3.5 book WotC ever released. I bought multiple cases of most of the miniatures sets. I bought the dungeon tiles.

Now I buy almost nothing from WotC. I'm not interested in 4E. The 4E cross-pollination with DDM means I dropped the skirmish game and cut way, way back on buying the minis. (I am still buying the dungeon tiles.)

When did I stop being WotC's target audience? And why? Why did WotC decide to forego the money I was giving them? Are people like me so rare that WotC actually can't make a profit from us? Considering how much I spent on a monthly basis, I find that difficult to believe, but I guess maybe ...

It seems very, very, very (yes, three verys) odd to me that I was a WotC completist for eight years, and then -- bam! -- I'm no longer their target audience. How can it be that the division between "consumer" and "irrelevant" is so sharp? Is it because I turned 40 in May?

It really seems to me that "you aren't WotC's target audience, so they don't care what you think" has the cause and effect backward. I stopped buying WotC's stuff because it became clear that they didn't care what I think. So why and when did they stop caring?

I'm in absolutely the same boat... A game I love and no hope of a return. Worse, there isn't any support. Pathfinder is nice; for now, but with the changes they are making, I won't stick with them either.

Awful. Luckily (after buying up as much 3.5 stuff I can), I have plenty for campaigns for years to come, BUT... I miss the magazines, I don't like the new miniatures plan at all (I have painstakenly traded for all of the complete sets) and think the new version of the game is too... something; I don't know, simple is all I can really think of off the top of my head. I've tried it a handful of times, at various levels. There are a very few things that I do like, but most of the powers thing irritates me.

Anyhow, I'm not buying the magazines, and as an alternative I'm just going to go back and reread my subscription.

Aluvial

 

[Gothmog]

That was Theoretical 4e, where as much attention was given to non-combat aspects of the game as was given to combat aspects of the game.



That 4e saw a problem with rogues not being able to sneak attack for months at a time, but didn't see a problem with negotiators not being able to negotiate for months at a time.

To me, in my campaigns, sneak attacks and negotiations are both pretty important.

4e doesn't really think negotiations are that important, or they would've designed the game with it in mind like they designed it with sneak attack in mind.

Well, I've been running a 4e campaign for five months now, and my games haven't suffered because a of a lack of crafting, profession, or social interaction skills. In fact, I put them back in for one player who wanted them- I give all PCs two trained skills at first level that are some kind of hobby/interest/professional skill (so smithing or painting for example). I tend to run RP-heavy, investigation/exploration/mystery type games, with maybe 2-4 combats per adventure (any quite a few times we've gone with 0 combats, and all roleplaying). Using the rogue you cited above, the rogue in my game gets to sneak attack probably half a dozen times per adventure, but he also uses Bluff, Diplomacy, Streetwise and his skills at least twice that many times. I can offer you direct proof you can run a RP-heavy game in 4e, and the system not only handles it well, it makes it easier to run this kind of game.

I think what the 4e designers realized was something I realized about five years ago too: having hard-wired rules for roleplaying in a game actually detracts from and limits roleplaying. Even otherwise good roleplayers have a tendency to start playing to get the bonus, the syngery effect, and thinking in terms of difficulty of the roll rather than assuming the role of a character. 3.x had this problem, and even nWoD does as well unless you're careful (playing to your Vice for Willpower can result in some WEIRD situations). For me, leaving the roleplaying end of things more freeform and not constrained by rules means you'll get better roleplaying- thats certainly been my experience with 4e vs. 3.x. I don't think the designers of 4e thought roleplaying was unimportant, they thought it was better to focus on those things that did need improvement in the rules (combat, skill challenges, and ease of prep), and not try to provide rules for something that doesn't need it (roleplaying). Hell, the 4e PHB even opens with a chapter devoted to roleplaying and character building- the longest and most involved discussion of it of ANY version of D&D.

 

[LostSoul]

All that verbiage does very little if the game doesn't pay attention to it in mechanics, and 3e paid more attention to it than 4e does, thus encouraging it more (I outlined a few of the ways it did that above).

Can you go a session or two or three or four without a Skill Challenge? Can you go that same length of time without a combat?

Yes, you can go that same length of time without a combat.

Here's an interesting thing about 4e: you can go four sessions without a combat encounter and expect to level up. The same isn't true about 3e.

Since "level ups" are where your character grows and changes, I would say that the game does pay attention to it in the mechanics in a way that 3e only paid lip service to.

If I don't have mechanics for how my character performs these things I'm talking about, I'm less inclined to waste time talking about them. If spouting haikus is important for my fighter, I want to represent that without having to be a master of spontaneous haiku myself, while still having the detail that makes me feel like that is important.

Basically, just talking about it isn't good enough, if it's important to me. I want to play the game, which involves using the mechanics, and if there's no "talk mechanics," then talking doesn't seem to be part of the game, and it gets ignored.

4e has ways to make spouting haikus important to the game and to your fighter. Let's start from the top: how do you play 4e?

Exploration

In exploration mode, the characters move throught the adventure setting, making decisions about their course and perhaps searching for traps, treasure, or riches. The game spends a lot of time in exploration mode. It's what usually fills the space between encounters. It usually ends when an encounter begins.​

Most of the DMG is about Exploration mode.

Conversation

In conversation, the PCs are exploring the infomartion inside an NPC's head, rather than exploring a dungeon room. It's not a social skill challenge, with specific goals and a real chance of failure. The PCs ask questions, and the NPC responds.​

I call this "royale with cheese".

Encounter

Encounters are the exciting part of the D&D game. They have tension and urgency about them and a chance of failure.​

There is another mode in the game, one that's not laid out explicitly as such, but it follows from the others: Reward. This is where you gain XP and treasure. This is where the characters change.

The cycle of game play in 4e is like this: Exploration (Conversation) -> Encounter -> Reward -> Exploration, on and on. Read each arrow as "leads to".


Now, how does this make haiku-spouting important to the game?

Your "haiku-spouting fighter" feeds directly into the cycle of game play. It does so by introducing Quests.

Quests are the bridge between Encounters -> Reward -> Exploration. Quests are resolved by Encounters, give you Rewards, and change what is being explored in Exploration mode.

If you are so inclined - if "haiku-spouting" is important to you - your fighter might have a Quest to "win the title of Master Haikuster at the secret competition". Suddenly the game does care that your fighter spouts haikus. Your "haiku-spouting" is what is driving the cycle around and around again.


What it sounds like you are missing is fine-grained character-build choice, saying "I think Perform (Haiku)" is more important than Spot. 4e doesn't give you that choice to make, and if that's an important one for you, I can see how you'd miss it.

This doesn't mean that haiku-spouting is not important to the game. Because of how Quests and character motivation feeds back into the game cycle, I think haiku-spouting is more important to the game than ever.

 

[Greg K]

And one big effect that Perform (Haiku) had in 3e if I was a fighter was that I could roll to see how well I did, and have a "mortal baseline" to compare it against. I could challenge wandering minstrels to Haiku contests in exchange for precious information. I could roll well and deliver a well-crafted Haiku in the presence of the suspicious baron who thinks that all adventurers are trashy vagabonds who make a mess..

KM, where are your priorities, man? You forgot the most important thing... have the haiku win your character the affections of the hot noble chick (or dude, for those readers are so inclined) and gain various "favors".