Disappointed in 4e

[ExploderWizard]

It wasn't spells that did it, it was move and cast that hurt. Also lack of full attack and movement hurt the fighters. They went from running 30 ft and hitting a guy a few times to moveing 5' and hitting a guy a few times.


Spells did not unbalance, moving while casting did that

Thats a good point. I will add that "turn" based combat combined with not having to declare casting from a pre-initiative standpoint made combat casting much more reliable.

Turn based initiative kind of makes combat feel more like a game and less like a battle. Once you know your place in "the order" you can plan out your moves. As a caster you can cast without much fear of disruption. If someone does want to spoil your spell then they have to wait and do nothing else.

Round by round initiative and spell declaration makes the flow of battle more chaotic and less certain. This gives martial types more power and its been missing since 3E was released.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Logos!

I know you are joking, but I wanted to use it as a springboard to say I don't see hatred, I see disappointment in the OP. He was excited, he looked forward to it, and he has played it; but it just leaves him lacking.

Yes, I was joking and I share your opinion on this matter.

BTW ... I also gave the OP some XP, for posting something of substance (although we have seen other posts like it) and being unfairly maligned.

-Samir

 

[Jack99]

Alas, board rules prevent comment.

I know

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Sophia!

What won't help is posting on message boards when your angry.

I respectfully disagree. Passion can be good for constructive discourse.

-Samir

 

[Allister]

It wasn't spells that did it, it was move and cast that hurt. Also lack of full attack and movement hurt the fighters. They went from running 30 ft and hitting a guy a few times to moveing 5' and hitting a guy a few times.


Spells did not unbalance, moving while casting did that

It wasn't JUST move and cast.

It was the fact that round by round initative heavily favoured melee.

It was the fact that spellcasters couldn't get around their spell slot limitation.

It was the fact that magic actually became easier to resist as you levelled.

It was the fact that a wizard didn't get his spell automatically.

 

[Grimstaff]

One of my big complaints about 4e is how it cuts out so many character options in the name of streamlined, precalculated fun.

One of my favorite things about 4E is how it cuts out so many character options in the name of streamlined, precalculated fun.

 

[Mister Doug]

It wasn't JUST move and cast.

It was the fact that round by round initative heavily favoured melee.

It was the fact that spellcasters couldn't get around their spell slot limitation.

It was the fact that magic actually became easier to resist as you levelled.

It was the fact that a wizard didn't get his spell automatically.

All true. The changes to 3e systems that increased the number and availability of spells, the reliability of them, the speed and ease of regaining them, the ease of moving and effective action for spellcasters vs. others, and the ease of access to specific and predictable magic items, as well as some of the points above changed a lot about the balance points of magic in ways that were not obvious until play.

The fact that that 4e magic does not work the same way that previous editions did says to me that the designers were at least trying to learn from previous editions.

Whether it will turn out that they learned the right things or implemented the right solutions will be a matter for history to tell us...

 

[Mister Doug]

Well, this assumes that the reason they restricted options is primarily to make more money. It is possible that they took this approach for the purpose of making sure that they created a product that focused on avoiding some of the unintended problems of interactions between elements of a complex set of options in real play -- looking to make a good product with limited options rather than a big product with a lot of problems, hoping that a good, limited product would be tight enough to sell the system to new players.

Not being an insider to the process, I don't know which is true. I am sure that making money was part of the plan, and actually consider that a good thing. If WotC didn't plan on making money, then I would know for sure that the game was in the hands of people who weren't thinking things through....

 

[Grimstaff]

Whether true or not, this is how WotC looks to a lot of people right now. There's a strong impression that WotC didn't create the best game they could have with 4E - or rather, that things many people consider to be near-vital were deliberately held back from the Core Rulebooks to boost sales of later splatbooks. After all, we were told outright that several classic monsters wouldn't be in the MM simply so that they could be included in the MM2 to drive up sales. People simply feel that WotC is less concerned with releasing a great game, than they are concerned with releasing a flawed and incomplete game to better guarantee sales.

To summarize, people get upset when companies embrace the idea of non-excellence as a viable marketing tactic.

"non-excellence" to you, perhaps. "A lot of people" is a little harder to prove. Here at EnWorld, at least, 50% or so are playing 4E, and the other 50% are playing something else.

Some of us also like buying new game stuff - shocking, I know, but yes, some folks actually like to walk into a bookstore or LGS and pick up the latest splat, mod, or monster manual.

Some of even like to buy 4E books, and wish there was more out there to buy. Personally, I think there is plenty of stuff available in the 4E core books, especially considering 4E is hopeful of bringing new players to the hobby and too many options can be overwhelming. Personal feelings aside, I can find no evidence that our hobby has grown in the last 5 years or so, and this will hopefully change with a "back to basics" approach.

Btw, posting stuff like "we were told outright that several classic monsters wouldn't be in the MM simply so that they could be included in the MM2 to drive up sales" is a good way to invalidate your entire post as some sort of vengeful rant, try sticking to the facts, please!

 

[Alzrius]

"non-excellence" to you, perhaps. "A lot of people" is a little harder to prove. Here at EnWorld, at least, 50% or so are playing 4E, and the other 50% are playing something else.

"to me perhaps"? You're under the mistaken impression that I was advocating a point in my post. I wasn't, I was explaining why some people keep mentioning the "WotC's only out to make money" argument. I wasn't personally advocating it.

Some of us also like buying new game stuff - shocking, I know, but yes, some folks actually like to walk into a bookstore or LGS and pick up the latest splat, mod, or monster manual.

Are sarcastic little comments like "shocking, I know" really necesary, Grimstaff? It's things like that that make people think that they can't even talk about a position - again, just talk about it without necessarily advocating it - without someone jumping on them for it.

Some of even like to buy 4E books, and wish there was more out there to buy. Personally, I think there is plenty of stuff available in the 4E core books, especially considering 4E is hopeful of bringing new players to the hobby and too many options can be overwhelming. Personal feelings aside, I can find no evidence that our hobby has grown in the last 5 years or so, and this will hopefully change with a "back to basics" approach.

That's nice, but it's not what I was talking about. I was just explaining how some people see WotC's actions - whether that's right or not is another issue. How people react to WotC's current business models is quite far outside of what I was talking about.

Btw, posting stuff like "we were told outright that several classic monsters wouldn't be in the MM simply so that they could be included in the MM2 to drive up sales" is a good way to invalidate your entire post as some sort of vengeful rant, try sticking to the facts, please!

I am sticking to the facts, and we were outrightly told that by WotC prior to the Core Rulebooks coming out. Try double-checking your facts, please!