I'm not even going to discuss 4Ed.
Who got Psionics in my Dnd?
- Thread starter Oni
- Start date
I'm not even going to discuss 4Ed.
MadLordOfMilk
First Post
...the D&D-style Wizard doesn't exist in traditional fantasy as much as psionicist-style magic? ...what? Am I the only one who hasn't seen this at all? 
Or perhaps I'm not seeing it from the same angle...
Or perhaps I'm not seeing it from the same angle...You just did.
...the D&D-style Wizard doesn't exist in traditional fantasy as much as psionicist-style magic? ...what? Am I the only one who hasn't seen this at all?
Just to clarify...you say you see a more psionics style wizard in traditional fantasy, or the other? I am trying to figure out where the psionics>arcane magic in traditional fantasy is coming form, but cannot find anything to support the claim.
Wow. I remember that thread!
Again, a fireball slinging mage in traditional fantasy or mythology is going to be able to sling them all day until his power source runs out. If he has a problem that slinging fireballs won't solve, he can switch to another spell of his, and again, can use it until he is drained. If he has a variety of foes, he can flip from spell to spell, targeting his enemies with the spell best suited to defeat them, limited only by whatever fuels his power. In each case, this is exactly the kind of resource management a psionic PC has.
(Are there exceptions? Of course- Rune magic, gem magic, totemic magic, ritual magic, etc. have different mechanics...but they are neither mimicked by typical D&D casters or psionic PCs.)
In contrtast, a D&D Wizard (4Ed excluded) has Vancian magic- he has to memorize his spells in slots that he allocates at the beginning of the day, originally created by Jack Vance in his Dying Earth sci-fi books. AFAIK, there isn't another writer of fiction or story of legend with similar resource management that isn't tied to D&D.
By your explanation then why does fantasy not have wizards just running rampant casting the most powerful things they have then?
There is an underlying universal concept as to why wizards can wield great power, but don't use it, and that is where the problem lies in thinking they can just use it all the time.
What good would a story be if a wizard just lobs the most powerful spells at anything?
There is an underlying universal concept as to why wizards can wield great power, but don't use it, and that is where the problem lies in thinking they can just use it all the time.
What good would a story be if a wizard just lobs the most powerful spells at anything?
WayneLigon
Adventurer
The inspiration? The same fantasy that Gygax was probably reading around that time. Fantasy, as oppossed to SF, was in the ghetto much longer. For many, many years the only way for fantasy to get published was to dress it up as science fiction. I can see three main sources off the top of my head feeding into putting psi into D&D: The Deyni books, The Darkover series, and the Witch World series. In the last two the tone is very much fantasy but with a palatable SF coating. The Deryni books are pure fantasy, just with the Deryni being psionic mutants rather than spellcasters per se even though they do ritual 'magic' etc.
tomBitonti
Hero
I have to say ... 1e psionics does have a sci-fi element to it. Probability Travel, anyone? Also, there is Blackmoor, which has the City of the Gods, a high-tech city.
I'm thinking that a clearer question is: From whence did psionics, with the flavor as given in 1e, arise?
I'm thinking that a clearer question is: From whence did psionics, with the flavor as given in 1e, arise?
As I recall, “science-fiction” and “fantasy” weren’t so distinct at the time.
And Gygax always seems to lean more towards the middle anyway. Oerth was a sphere. I suspect he thought of it being in a planetary system rather than at the center of crystalline spheres. Even his forays into science-fiction leaned towards fantasy.
I’d even argue that D&D—ironically—significantly influenced the split between “sci-fi” and “fantasy”.
And Gygax always seems to lean more towards the middle anyway. Oerth was a sphere. I suspect he thought of it being in a planetary system rather than at the center of crystalline spheres. Even his forays into science-fiction leaned towards fantasy.
I’d even argue that D&D—ironically—significantly influenced the split between “sci-fi” and “fantasy”.
There ARE storylines in which wizards just run rampant and/or tell you why they don't. The concepts are not universal and vary greatly from storyteller to storyteller.
In Terry Brooks' Shannara books, the use of magic is potentially a corrupting force, and the more you use, the more probable and deeper the corruption.
In some Eastern legends, magic- certain evil magics, anyway- can age the caster. A classic example of this appears in the Sinbad movies, in which Tom Baker's wizard ages with each spell he casts.
Niven's Magic Goes Away stories are set in a world in which the great mages of the world simply exhausted the world's mana because they didn't realize it was a finite resource. (You may recognize that as one inspiration for TSR's DarkSun setting.) However, when a source of mana is found, the ONLY limit to the use of power is the amount of power available and your skill in its manipulation.
In some legends, like that of Atlantis, the wizards cast magic freely until they offended the gods with their displays of power, and were struck down. In other legends, its not the gods who strike down the wizards, but arcanovoric and/or soul-eating beings to whom the casting of magic is a dinner bell ringing loudly. The "louder you ring," the quicker they come running.
In the Eternal Champion stories, at least some magic practitioners are limited by the pacts they have made with otherworldly supernatural beings. Those who have the oldest pacts get the best deals- the Johnny-come-latelies of the magic world often find the majority of the benefit of the pact goes to the supernatural being, not the caster.
Some books feature mages of unimaginable power. They rule the world, but they are rare. This is partly because the path to arcane knowledge is difficult (or in some cases, available only to those with an innate talent for it), but it is also because many of their lesser rivals were killed off by mundanes who feared their power and what they could become. Or they've killed off their lesser rivals.
In many magical traditions, there isn't even really the concept of combat magic such as is used in FRPGs- there is only Ritual Magic. Certainly, such mages can use magic to harm or heal, but it takes them time- more time than is available in a combat zone. In those stories, fast harmful magics are the exclusive purview of potions, wands, staves and other physical artifacts. A "modern" take on this can be found in Harry Turtledove's Darkness novels. Mages- even that world's equivalents of Gandalf or Merlin- can cast almost no directly harmful or helpful magic with any real speed. Such magic requires long, difficult rituals. Instead, magical energy is trapped in devices that can be triggered by anyone trained in their use. The great magics, however, are still limited to rituals. Still, that means that one of the only real limiting factors is time.
Even humorous writers get into it- the wizards of Terry Pratchett's Diskworld don't use magic for everything because its often easier to do something the mundane way than to use magic. They save magic for the BIG problems of the day.
Tim the Enchanter casts fireballs all day long.
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