Fallen Seraph
First Post
I would prefer some manner of "mental" implement. You always hear about in fiction that psychics focus their mind on something like an emotion, memory, etc, etc. It be interesting to have something like that.
Who got Psionics in my Dnd?
- Thread starter Oni
- Start date
The concept of psionics in general. Mind over matter only and the sci-fi emphasis that surrounds it always.
Just use specialized arcane magic instead and follow the same conventions it does to produce effects and the same penalties it has for using them.
Also it just doesn't fit that a diviner or oracle or seer would be that good of an adventurer, because even the wizard fearing a housecat could be effective in battle, and the psionics just doesn't fit the fantasy I want to play in.
Nostradamus was killed 7 times but did little to injure another, so in a fight I would not want a psionic party member with me.
As a DM I don't want to deal with the psionic baggage.
IF it can be made to work like a spell-like ability, then it should be able to be converted into a spell and just use a divine or arcane magic and used form there.
Psionics outside of divination is post-modern philosophy and archetype, and doesn't belong in past-modern fantasy genre.
Might as well give the fighter a shotgun and call him Master Sgt to bridge the gap from past and future.
Uh...I don't agree with that.
Many of the psionic powers we think of as "post modern" were derived from legends ancient Eastern philosophies dating back to at least 1200-900 BCE. The masters of Qi/Ki/Prana/Lung manipulation were said to have abilities like astral projection, healing or harming touch, levitation/flight, walking through walls, various powers of mind over matter (including drawing on energy to strengthen the mind and body), even some kinds of energy projection (usually fire) and more. Eventually, those abilities were co-opted by the psychics of the past 200 or so years and the more modern new age movement.
From there, they have been imported into D&D in the Monk, Oriental Adventures, Magic of Incarnum and yes, psionics. (Which is why one of my homebrew projects is to either unify all the Ki/Psi/Incarnum into one system or have analogs of each class in each subsystem.)
The nomenclature may be quasi-scientific and post-modern, but the inspiration for the powers is as old as anything else in D&D.
Don't get me wrong- run whatever game you like. If you don't like Psi, don't use it, but make your decision a fully informed one.
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Psi is Greek so the nomenclature isn't the problem of being post-modern. The concept themselves are of an older world prior to medieval society, so it could be possible that some survived through the ages for a medieval setting game.
The problem is the implementation. There is no way to take the old-world psions/psionicists/etc and make them work true to history and myth into the D&D system.
They have never truly worked, because they are too free, wherein even the supernatural powers of magic could be restrained within the game.
Once you allow the mind to do things, then it can quickly and easily supersede anything that could be done by arcane or divine sources, and could achieve them faster.
People thought wizards were overpowered, if a true psion was developed for the game it would break the system in a heartbeat.
Also it would follow the same requirements of a wizard, so actually make a wizards a dwarfed or obsolete class.
Thus the problem. The wizard is fine, and a psion can be just a specialized wizard without gutting the system for it. It doesn't fit the mold, or the setting.
That is why I stated before, that it would need severe damages for using any related abilities to psionics.
Its post-modern in that the charlatans of the past used greco-roman terms to dress up their tricks with the language of science to gain respectability, a trend that continues to this day.
Sure there is- take a look at the aforementioned Monks, Ki-using classes, Incarnum classes and the like. The old-world masters of the mind were no more or less powerful than the masters of arcane might or the servants of the divine.
I have to agree somewhat- of the various systems, the XPH probably has the best overall balance with the Core D&D game. 1Ed psi was overpowered and 2Ed was a bit messy at times.
3Ed psionic mechanics, though, blend quite nicely with the other magic systems of the Core, IMHO.
Again, the mentalists of old were no more or less powerful than wizards, sorcerers or priests in the same legendary traditions.
However those mentalists of old added with new world philosophy on the mater would need to be combined in order to make a viable class for the game, otherwise, how would those mentalists of old really be able to have a power useable to combat?
It would basically be a damage-fre status slinging class, or need to be the ki-based monk.
Again the problems of the psionicist are numerous to get it to fit and work well.
I never had the misfortune of seeing them in 3rd.
It can be done in a way in 4th because there is little flavor or deviation between the classes with the power system, but getting it to fit in peoples worlds and minds is where the biggest problems will remain.
As always, just because it exists and is even considered "core" doesn't mean that there is a place for it in the norm of the game.
Right now someone would be laughed at to ask to play a tiefling or dragonbron around me with 4th. They take demihumans too far. But I prefer an all human-party as well, so I may a be a bit off in what I like form the norm, but that little bit of being off is what can break a game apart. I am not totally alone in not liking dragonborn, psionics or other. It is the way it will be presented that just needs to make sure a DM can still say no to it.
One of the problems behind the presentation of 4th some of us have. A part of the DM job and enjoyment that shouldn't be taken away is the ability to design his/her world in a specific way.
So as not to have full plate armor abundant and air conditioned on Athas as it were.
It would basically be a damage-fre status slinging class, or need to be the ki-based monk.
Again the problems of the psionicist are numerous to get it to fit and work well.
I never had the misfortune of seeing them in 3rd.
It can be done in a way in 4th because there is little flavor or deviation between the classes with the power system, but getting it to fit in peoples worlds and minds is where the biggest problems will remain.
As always, just because it exists and is even considered "core" doesn't mean that there is a place for it in the norm of the game.
Right now someone would be laughed at to ask to play a tiefling or dragonbron around me with 4th. They take demihumans too far. But I prefer an all human-party as well, so I may a be a bit off in what I like form the norm, but that little bit of being off is what can break a game apart. I am not totally alone in not liking dragonborn, psionics or other. It is the way it will be presented that just needs to make sure a DM can still say no to it.
One of the problems behind the presentation of 4th some of us have. A part of the DM job and enjoyment that shouldn't be taken away is the ability to design his/her world in a specific way.
So as not to have full plate armor abundant and air conditioned on Athas as it were.
FireLance
Legend
justanobody, I wonder if we are talking at cross purposes here? Because we seem to have very different ideas about psionics.
First of all, you seem to have the impression that psionic powers would be entirely at-will. This does not need to be the case in D&D any more than magic in D&D needs to be entirely at-will. In 3e and previous editions, psionic powers were limited by a power point mechanic. In 4e, I see no reason why they could not follow the same at-will/encounter/daily power structure that the other classes have.
Second of all, you seem to have the impression that psionic powers are divinatory or otherwise non-combat in nature. However, it is not too difficult to imagine psionic powers that turn divination (or clairsentience) to combat purposes: allowing a character to dodge an attack or strike with greater precison, for example. In addition, psionics in D&D can do more than just divination: telekinesis and teleportation are considered psionic disciplines and have obvious combat applications. Even telepathy can be used to control minds and disrupt thoughts in a manner similar to the mind flayer's mind blast.
Or was your point that you would prefer psionic effects to be translated into appropriately-named spells and for psions to be translated into different types of wizards? So, a telepath could become a mind mage or an enchanter, a clairsentient could become a diviner, and a psychoporter a wizard specializing in transportation and movement effects?
First of all, you seem to have the impression that psionic powers would be entirely at-will. This does not need to be the case in D&D any more than magic in D&D needs to be entirely at-will. In 3e and previous editions, psionic powers were limited by a power point mechanic. In 4e, I see no reason why they could not follow the same at-will/encounter/daily power structure that the other classes have.
Second of all, you seem to have the impression that psionic powers are divinatory or otherwise non-combat in nature. However, it is not too difficult to imagine psionic powers that turn divination (or clairsentience) to combat purposes: allowing a character to dodge an attack or strike with greater precison, for example. In addition, psionics in D&D can do more than just divination: telekinesis and teleportation are considered psionic disciplines and have obvious combat applications. Even telepathy can be used to control minds and disrupt thoughts in a manner similar to the mind flayer's mind blast.
Or was your point that you would prefer psionic effects to be translated into appropriately-named spells and for psions to be translated into different types of wizards? So, a telepath could become a mind mage or an enchanter, a clairsentient could become a diviner, and a psychoporter a wizard specializing in transportation and movement effects?
I think the nature of psionics as most would want are not easily translated into their own class or would fit in D&D. Either you would have something that would be useless for combat, or overpower any other class abilities.
The easiest thing to do would be to just have a specialist wizard that doesnt' work with spell components and such. The thing about 4th is, that is all wizards.
So the spells that a "psionicist" would need are not that different than something a wizard should already be able to use, as the power source shouldn't be any real different, or it will be causing a lot of damage to the psionicist if the power is derived from self, which would make it potentially counter productive in battle where the most useful parts of those powers are.
I think it would work best as something like a specialty wizard that has access to the wizard type damaging spells, but works most with status effects to get the best fit for D&D.
But I don't really like the idea of drawing the power from self, as the repercussions that requires to be dealt on the body. It just doesn't lend itself well to D&D.
FireLance
Legend
Unfortunately, it still isn't clear to me why this would be the case. Specifically, what elements of psionics "as most would want" would be useless for combat? How would they overpower other class abilities? Why would they not translate easily into their own class? If you could cite some examples of what you are thinking about, I think it would help clarify the concerns.
There seems to be an implied assumption here that drawing power from yourself must lead to some kind of hit point damage or other mechanical disadvantage to the user. I don't see why this needs to be the case, though.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
Your idea of psionics as divination actually comes from the ideas of 19th and 20th century spiritualism. Historically, divination was a divine or diabolocal province, as only God could see the future or the Devil use false images as temptation.
D&D is very much a modern fantasy genre. If wizards worked like the beliefs of the past had them work, they're have almost no resemblance to a D&D wizard at all. Historically, very few wizard even had the reputation for creating mass damage spells at will. Everything was done via ritual preparation, and about the best they could manage in the direct-damage area was summoning a killing storm or other natural disaster. Usually they'd go about cursing or souring people's luck, or giving them some incurable disease. Merlin is almost unique in the annals of human storytelling for the array and power of his abilities.
D&D's ideas, look and feel come from fantasy novels. Several have already been mentioned, a number of times, as works that either use a psionic system in place of a magic system, or combine the two. I'm not exactly where you come about this idea that psionics are 'all powerful' but it seems that you're forgetting the psionics will work in whatever way the author/designer wants them to.
In most books, psionic 'magic' comes from within a person. Only in rare instances does it's use hurt them in some way (such as the flawed psi experiments in Firestarter), but it does tire them, depending on the ability.
The Valdemar series uses both psi and magic in that world. Heralds are all psi users. They can mostly use their ability at will and without a lot of effort once they've been trained. The 'brake' on their power is that they usually only have one power and can never learn others. The mages in that world usually pull energy from the surrounding world or from ley lines and nodes; they do get tired and also sometimes have to wait for the surrounding energy to replenish itself.
In Darkover, most of their psi is communal. The 'brake' on their power is that most of it is done with a number of others to multiply their ability; a circle of psionics can change the weather, pull elementally pure copper from the earth, and lots more stuff. Individually? They're mainly limited to telepathy and ESP. Also here and in the Witch World series, psi is originally thought to be linked to gender: only women can be psi (in both series this is later disproven but gene-linked traits could certainly provide a 'brake').
Pretty much every author and designer puts in restrictions on any 'special power' to keep that character from being a nightmare to plot for,
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