Who got Psionics in my Dnd?

[Andor]

D&D was taken from, Tolkien and other like materials, mythology, so why should it not fit within those ideas but somewhere else?

Tolkein is loaded with psionics. He just didn't call it psionics. Aragorn is a precog. Gandalf, Denethor, Faramir, the elves, and the ring all use telepathy. The Palantirii are cystal balls that grant clairvoyance and telepathy. There's probably more I don't recall off the top of my head.

Lots of psionics is traditional magic if you don't dress it up in new age clothes.

 

[AllisterH]

Incidentally, D&D magic isn't even Vancian, so much as "pseudo-Vancian" - mages in Vance's novels had much fewer spells prepared, and could use some of their weaker stuff at will. And many were good swordsmen, for that matter.

Wait, you mean, it's more like 4E?

As an aside, I think psionic EFFECTS and CASTING are more common than Vancian in fantasy fiction.

As shown by this thread, its ridiculously easy to find examples of psionic-style casting but Vancian?

Other than D&D novels, how many fantasy fiction even uses material components that allow for battle casting like D&D mages?

When it comes to actual use of components, its closer to the RITUALISTIC magic we have in 4E but actual pre 4e magic? I'm honestly blanking on this...

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Tim Kask developed the psionic rules for the OD&D supplements. They were in the 1976 Eldritch Wizardry supplement. (Obviously, this precedes the 1e rules.) Talking about psionics, Tim said:

[Editing Supplement II: Blackmoor] was a great learning experience for me. What I learned on it would serve me in good stead in future supplements. (Except for psionic combat. I LOVED psionic combat and had great fun devising it with all of its tables and charts. Apparently I was in the tiny minority. I guess mental combat was too esoteric for most D&Ders; not enough of them shared my fondness for the Dr. Strange Marvel comics and Mindflayers. God, I loved Mindflayers; they were all ovr my dungens. I just loved the idea of turning an annoying PC into a gibbering idiot.. Oh well, live and learn…)

He also said:

The operative word here is "developed". I did not invent the idea; quite honestly,I don't remember who did. But I did develop it.

A game developer (or in this case, a rules developer) is kind of like a midwife. We take someone else's ideas and twist them into a more coherent and playable format as we help them to be born. Sometmes it just involves tinkering with the rules a little on somehing that already works. (A good example of that would be the 2nd edition of Naval War that I developed for AH as a labor of love. It started as a goofy article I wrote that was just a compendium of "house rules" that my gaming group had come up with in my basement, and ended up as a whole series of optional rules in a subsequent printing/edition.)

I hammered and twisted those psionic rules forever, and inflicted play-testing on the gang until they got sick of them.

Yes, I probably lobbied for their inclusion in AD&D. No, Gary did not love them as I did. But he was wise enough to kow that for D&D to continue the phenomenal growth, we had to offer stuff that others might like even if one or more of us didn't.

5 or 6 of the greatest days I spent at TSR are when Gary and I literally locked ourselves in his office each day from 9 to 5, had all calls held, and proceded to cover the walls and floor with cut up rules booklets and legal pages as we decided what would be Basic and what would become Advanced. It was the first time that the game and all of the supplements,additions, add-ons, magazine articles, etc. were assembled, analyzed and dissected. We had some great friendly arguments...

and

I cheerfully take the blame...

Everyone's campaign should have it's own flavor.

I used them and envisioned them in a different world or reality. In my campagn I had a museum of sorts. In it I had an art gallery. One or more of the paintings were actually portals to other worlds/planes. The one my group went through took them to an alternate "reality" where nearly every creaure had psionic skills or abilities. You had to watch what you thought, let alone what you did. An M-U that was worn down mentally from casting was especially vulnerable...hehehe. Killed me a few M-U's...

Additionally, Gary added:

Tim failed to mention that after completing his assignment he informed Brian and me that if he was handed another "basket" like that he turned into a D&D game supplement, we could find a new magazine editor

As for the psionics, tyhat can of worms was my doing. I had created the mind flayer as a fine monster, and I should have left well enough alone; but no! I had to add mental powersm send the initial draft around. I soon hated the whole business, but Len Lakofka and his group in Chicago loved the concept, and Tim was enthysed abot the addition as well. so, as sis Pilate, I washed my hands of the matter...

And probably some more in that Dragonsfoot thread. Tim answers questions, there, if you're interested.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes, I probably lobbied for their inclusion in AD&D. No, Gary did not love them as I did. But he was wise enough to kow that for D&D to continue the phenomenal growth, we had to offer stuff that others might like even if one or more of us didn't.

There is wisdom here.

 

[Psion]

There is wisdom here.

. I'll restrain from saying more there.

Anyway, thanks for sharing, Philotomy. Funny how spot-on I was with the Dr. Strange commentary, neh?

not enough of them shared my fondness for the Dr. Strange Marvel comics and Mindflayers.

 

[darjr]

Philotomy, I thank you, and curse you. Now I must go and read it all.

Really, thank you. That stuff is exactly what I was curious about.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

My hat of psionics know no limit ... mostly because:

- It has historically been unbalanced, up until about 3.5
- It's had wonky sci-fi mindpower flavor that doesn't fit into the style of fantasy game I like to play
- Either it uses the same mechanics as the magic system, which makes it redundant, or it uses entirely different mechanics, which makes it a pain in the ass to use.
- The sour flavor I tasted when experimenting with it in 1E days has never gone away.

I remember Gary posting in one of his Q&A threads that he regretted including psionics in the PHB ... has anyone dug that particular post up?

 

[Umbran]

- It's had wonky sci-fi mindpower flavor that doesn't fit into the style of fantasy game I like to play

I think Katherine Kurtz's "Deryni" books show a non-scifi way to implement psi as a fantasy element. YMMV, of course. It's all in the flavor text.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't have a problem with the inclusion of psionics as long as its a separate subsystem and can be used or dropped without changing the core rules.

 

[nightwyrm]

Just a few more examples of "psionics-like" magic in fantasy:

David Eddings' Belgariad
Mercedes Lackey's Heralds series
Robin Hobb's Farseer and sequel series
even the WoT series by Robert Jordan is more similar to D&D psionic rules than vanacian magic rules

Other than D&D novels, most of what I read in fantasy literature uses "psionic-like" rules where magic is something you use on the fly and drains the caster's stamina/mana/energy. You'd never hear a (non-D&D) character say, "I can't start a fire with magic today coz I didn't prep it this morning." If anything, psionic rules are a wider representation of how magic works among fantasy literature.