D&D: big as it ever was? (Forked Thread: So...How are Sales of 4E Product?)

[TerraDave]

Forked from: So...How are Sales of 4E Product?

Not exactly. It would have been 2005, and what I was saying was that, contrary to the common perception (among gamers and nongamers) that D&D has for 20 years been a mere shadow of its early-80s fad highs, D&D was in fact about as big as it had ever been.

Comparisons are hard to make, because the TSR-era data is so sketchy, but virtually every metric we had good data on indicated that D&D had as many players then (2005) as it had ever had. And the numbers are probably up since then!

The broader point isn't a direct comparison of PHB sales. It's that we gamers shouldn't continue to think we live in the shadow of some glory days when D&D was really popular. These days are even bigger!

But, but, but...the game was everywhere back then, from middle schools to college campuses. I was denounced in churches, and had its own cartoon! It was huge!

And most people exposed to it never really became serious gamers. Is this a definitional issue? How we define "player"?

My guess is that fewer people buy D&D products, or have an inkling to play it, or know about it, but that the "core" is bigger, and those that do buy more stuff per person.

Or something like that.

 

[The Little Raven]

It was huge!

It was the first time that it came to the mainstream's attention. When something is new, people tend to talk about it a lot more. That doesn't indicate that it was more successful or had a larger installed user base than today. For example, Vampire: the Masquerade provoked a huge reaction in the early 1990s (the vampire murders and all that), but reached the height of it's popularity (and size of installed user base) in the mid-to-late 1990s.

 

[darjr]

This is very interesting to me. It's interesting that the news above gets buried in the cacophony of 'the industry/hobby is dying'. It's the first time I've heard about the comment.

Is there any publicly available information that backs it up. I mean I've got anecdotes for the whole day... but...

 

[darjr]

The other thing, how many players never upgraded? A nich of players stayed with AD&D and never bought any thing new, sure, but those folks add to the numbers of players and not to the numbers WotC would see.

Anybody have any idea?

 

[Caliber]

But hold on; if the number of players has regained the amount from 1980, or even more, but the population has grown more, wouldn't that still mean DnD has shrunk? Why would hard numbers be more important than percentage penetration?

 

[Keefe the Thief]

It can´t be. Dr. Dragonsfoot ensured me that the 80s ruled them all, being comprised of products and people not to be seen again, creating the giants´ shoulders upon which Wotc now unwittingly stands.
It cannot be otherwise.

 

[howandwhy99]

It can´t be. Dr. Dragonsfoot ensured me that the 80s ruled them all, being comprised of products and people not to be seen again, creating the giants´ shoulders upon which Wotc now unwittingly stands.
It cannot be otherwise.

Down with Dragonfooters, right?

I think it was more of a cultural phenomenon of the 70's and early 80's and sadly got intertwined with the (for lack of a better term) "devil scare" of the times. Whether it be devil music or devil games people out of the hobby talked more about the game then.

Not to mention percentages of players to population were probably higher.

And there was no overshadowing computer gaming culture. (big, but not overshadowing)

I'm happy our numbers are good though. I want RPGs to thrive and survive. If 4E's business model works better, more power to 'em.

 

[Lacyon]

But hold on; if the number of players has regained the amount from 1980, or even more, but the population has grown more, wouldn't that still mean DnD has shrunk? Why would hard numbers be more important than percentage penetration?

I rather think that depends on what point you're trying to make.

 

[Umbran]

But hold on; if the number of players has regained the amount from 1980, or even more, but the population has grown more, wouldn't that still mean DnD has shrunk? Why would hard numbers be more important than percentage penetration?

One year ago, I had five apples.

Right now, I have seven apples.

The fact that the apple harvest was bigger this year in no way changes the fact that I have more apples now than I had then.

Turn it around - why is percentage penetration more important that absolute numbers? Ultimately, the only question is, "Are we making enough profit to be pleased?"

 

[Qualidar]

Turn it around - why is percentage penetration more important that absolute numbers? Ultimately, the only question is, "Are we making enough profit to be pleased?"

It reflects on social acceptance.