restrictions on powers vs feats discussion

[justanobody]

Wait, so 3E characters getting feats at certain levels, and spellcasters getting access to spell levels at certain levels is 3E telling you the "right way" to play the game?


I think I agree. The classes do seem a bit too unified in that way. But I haven't played 4E yet, so maybe it won't make a lick of difference to me.

Are you told which specific feat you can or cannot get? Class abilities don't really count as you don't really get a choice.

Comparing powers to feats is a bit silly, but works, in that one you have a choice, and the other you are told when you can do something arbitrarily.

I think feats re still something you can choose any at any time as long as you have the requirements. Correct race/class/DEX/etc....

So why shouldn't powers give you the option to choose whatever you wanted within a given range? Having 2 dailies will make you powerful that first fight to waste them, but then you are SOL. Having your 2 encounters up front would be your choice.

I don't think Toughness has a level requirement, or tell you the exact level you have to be to choose it.

Even retraining doesn't let you choose something that you may prefer because you must choose within the same type of power.

another idea make the powers progressive and give power points.
1st level of a power does X worth of effect.
2nd level of power does 2X worth of effect.
~
6th level of power does 6X worth of effect.

Then just spend your power points available on whatever power you want at anytime with available points.

So you get like 7 power points at level 5. You spend them on a level 6 encounter power, and a level 1 daily.

Not a fully refined idea, but I think you might get what I am saying.

Or just let the powers, like magic items of the past, graduate with the PC level.

pick a power only once

Why? I want to be able to use Crushing Blow more often, so why can you not specialize in a series of powers?

 

[Fifth Element]

Are you told which specific feat you can or cannot get?

Yes, many feats have prerequisites. If you don't have a +14 BAB or whatever, you can't take that feat. They're certainly not as restrictive as 4E powers, but they are restrictive.

Class abilities don't really count as you don't really get a choice.

That's right, you (usually) don't get a choice. How is that not 3E "telling you how to play the game right" as you said 4E does? How does having more choice in some respect mean it's "telling you how to play the game right"?

I just think it was a throw-away anti-4E comment which didn't add anything to the discussion.

Comparing powers to feats is a bit silly, but works, in that one you have a choice, and the other you are told when you can do something arbitrarily.

So you can pick a feat whenever you like? You don't have to wait until 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th levels like the rules say you do?

I think feats re still something you can choose any at any time as long as you have the requirements. Correct race/class/DEX/etc....

And character level. If you're not gaining a certain character level, you can't pick a feat at all. (Other than bonus feats, but then you only get those at certain class levels.) You certainly have more selection, but to claim that feat acquisition is not arbitrary at all is a bit silly.

So why shouldn't powers give you the option to choose whatever you wanted within a given range? Having 2 dailies will make you powerful that first fight to waste them, but then you are SOL. Having your 2 encounters up front would be your choice.

I didn't disagree with that part of your post. I was calling you on an indefensible anti-4E comment that didn't add anything to the discussion.

I don't think Toughness has a level requirement, or tell you the exact level you have to be to choose it.

No, Toughness has no prerequsisites. But that's a cherry-picked example. Greater Weapon Specialization, on the other hand, has the following prerequisites: Proficiency with weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with weapon, Weapon Focus with weapon, Weapon Specialization with weapon, fighter level 12th. "Fighter level 12th" is a pretty restrictive requirement. Not all feats have such requirements, but many do.

 

[justanobody]

So you can pick a feat whenever you like? You don't have to wait until 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th levels like the rules say you do?

Yes you can. When you get to pick isn't the question. You are not only allowed to pick Toughness at level 6. You can pick it anytime. That is the problem with comparing feats to powers, and the problem with powers, that you are told the exact level you can get one of 3 things. (Some have 4 choices)

So it isn't I want to have these things in this order, but I can only get these things in a specific order. You are handed your feats.

It is like playing AD&D and the DM giving you your spell list, and never being given a choice.

Sure your odds of getting a spell are better since the DM chooses and circumvents the chance to learn a spell, but you have little say in the matter as to what type of spell(power) you get when.

Since spells work best for comparison to older editions as that is what all powers really are, even for melee classes is pretty much a spell list....

Level 2 utility Jump. How is that so overpowered as to not be allowed at level 1?

OMGWTFBBQ!11! The wizard has a spell that emulates a rogue a level early if he takes it at level 1!

Or he could aid the rogue getting them out of a tight situation or anyone else.

BUT to use it on the entire party of 5 including oneself, it takes 30 minutes to jump across somewhere because you need that short rest to recharge because you cannot have Jump twice.

God forbid I only want the at-will Magic Missile, and would rather have an extra Jump to help in an emergency because I don't think only about combat.

But you are given no real choice in the matter, because you can only have a power once, and only get it when you are told you can.

Instead letting it be chosen whenever in whatever order gives players more control over there characters.

Like the previous fighter that wants to bash people with hammers as a specialty, but not allowed to take more than one copy of a power for some strange nonsensical reason, and can only start doing so at 3rd level.

Because Crushing blow is so much better than Steel Serpent Strike because you get to add some damage, rather than make the target slowed and unable to shift....

Oddly the 3rd level power is weaker than the 1st level power since they are both 2[W]. And thematically someone might just want the weaker power first.

So both tell you what level you get to add something like a feat or power, and the feats have some silly requirements like needing 3 stats of 16 to be a ranger, but only the power really dictates when you can specifically choose it.

That is the problem with powers that feats do not incur.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes you can. When you get to pick isn't the question. You are not only allowed to pick Toughness at level 6. You can pick it anytime. That is the problem with comparing feats to powers, and the problem with powers, that you are told the exact level you can get one of 3 things. (Some have 4 choices).

4E PHB, pages 27-28 under "Powers". Read it. It specifies that when learning a new encounter, daily or utility power, you can learn a power of your level or lower. So just like feat prerequisites, the level of the power specifies the minimum level required. You can learn a 5th-level daily at 9th level if you like. Make sure you're familiar with the rules before you criticize them.

 

[justanobody]

4E PHB, pages 27-28 under "Powers". Read it. It specifies that when learning a new encounter, daily or utility power, you can learn a power of your level or lower. So just like feat prerequisites, the level of the power specifies the minimum level required. You can learn a 5th-level daily at 9th level if you like. Make sure you're familiar with the rules before you criticize them.

Feats are feats. Do we agree?

Powers are not powers.

Let me explain, better yet let me sum up:

Daily, Encounter, Utility.
You get no choice when you get them.

There is the problem. You are told which type of power you can get at each level.

Powers are not equal like feats, in that feats could be chosen at any time. Ignore the requirements of the feat itself. I really don't like feats that much anyway, but the requirements are moot because there is nothing that says you cannot try to get any feat at any level. You may try to get any feat at any level, only the feet has a rocker that you must ride to get it.

Powers tell you exactly when you may get specific ones.

You should be able to pick your powers when you want, not be shoehorned into having to take a daily at level X if you would prefer a utility instead.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Feats are feats. Do we agree?

Powers are not powers.

Let me explain, better yet let me sum up:

Daily, Encounter, Utility.
You get no choice when you get them.

There is the problem. You are told which type of power you can get at each level.

Powers are not equal like feats, in that feats could be chosen at any time. Ignore the requirements of the feat itself. I really don't like feats that much anyway, but the requirements are moot because there is nothing that says you cannot try to get any feat at any level. You may try to get any feat at any level, only the feet has a rocker that you must ride to get it.

Powers tell you exactly when you may get specific ones.

You should be able to pick your powers when you want, not be shoehorned into having to take a daily at level X if you would prefer a utility instead.

Why is that bad? I can't make a choice between gaining a Cleric or a Wizard spell in 3E - I have to pick the right class to get it. I can't make a choice between getting a skill or a feat. I don't get to choose when I get my Sneak Attack Increase and when I get my Uncanny Dodge. I can't choose to get Ucanny Dodge (can't be Flanked) before Uncanny Dodge (Dex Bonus to AC) as a Barbarian.

Just because I can have some choice doesn't mean I can choose everything as I see fit. A Daily Power might be a power, but then a skill is just a character ability like a feat is a character ability. A Daily Power is not an Encounter Power is not a Utility power.

 

[Fifth Element]

Daily, Encounter, Utility.
You get no choice when you get them.

Similarly, you get feats at 3rd, 6th, 9th etc. No choice there.

There is the problem. You are told which type of power you can get at each level.

Similar to fighter bonus feats. You get these feats at specific class levels, and choose from a restricted list. A list which is further restricted by the prerequisites.

You should be able to pick your powers when you want, not be shoehorned into having to take a daily at level X if you would prefer a utility instead.

I don't disagree with you. I disagree with your contention that this system is 4E "telling you how to play the game right", because close parallels can be drawn to 3E, both with feats and class abilities. You seem to have lost my point.

I think I would like a more flexible power system. But 3E and all previous editions were fairly inflexible for certain aspects of character advancement, so this is not a new feature of 4E.

3E class abilities: most classes got no choice whatsoever as to what abilities they got and when they got them. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but to decry 4E for being so inflexible when in many respects it is much more flexible seems a bit silly.

 

[justanobody]

You are both mising the damn point. Getting something at level X is not the problem.

Getting a different class thing is also not a problem as that is not something for your class.

The problem is that within your own class, you are told exactly what you can get and can only get IT at a specific level.

Feats have nothing that state you can only get feat Y at level X.

Powers do.

You can get any feat, any time you are allowed to get a feat.

When you can get powers, you are told which power to take.

It isn't about not getting 5 powers at level 1, but that when the time comes you can have 5 powers, you were told along the way which ones you are allowed to get and which ones you are not.

You only get a utility at level 2 and 6.

Why should you be forced to only take the utility powers then?

 

[Fifth Element]

You are both mising the damn point. Getting something at level X is not the problem.

I think you missed my point, which I spelled out quite clearly before. I think I agree with you on the whole. I can agree with you in general and disagree on a specific point, which is the case here.

You can get any feat, any time you are allowed to get a feat.

Why do you keep saying this? You can get any feat, as long as you meet the prerequisites and as long as you're at the right level to gain a feat. Not the same thing.

When you reach 9th level in 4E (for instance), you can get any daily power, as long as you meet the prerequisites (minimum level). There's a strong parallel there.

When you can get powers, you are told which power to take.

No, you are told what type of power you can take. Big difference. You can then take any power of that type, of your level or lower.

Why should you be forced to only take the utility powers then?

Not saying you should. It was a design decision, and they had reasons for it (balance, presumably). I think I would like a more flexible system, like you.

 

[justanobody]

You kept bringing up feats as a comparison, so I kept shooting them down as they do not translate well in the comparison by their nature of acquisition.