Hit points- The final frontier

[Minigiant]

Your wound point system doesn't look too bad, but it looks like it might break down at high levels because damage output usually increases faster than Constitution score. Perhaps Constitution + level, or healing surge value might be a better threshold?

Oops. It's supposed to be CON + 1/2 level. A paragon character not focused on CON would have to take 17-20 damage to get a wound and 4 woundsin a single fight to die. A few rules like letting action points, second wind, and some spells remove the first few wounds fixes most things.

In 4E, it becomes:
Hit, Miss, Dragon breath (1 wound), heal (no wound), Hit, Miss, hit , Miss., miss, Good hit (1 wound), second wind (no wound), Miss, Miss, Crit (2 wound), heal (1 wound), End fight, Rest heal (no wound)

OR

Hit, Miss, Dragon breath (1 wound), Good hit (2 wound), Crit (HELP!!)

 

[pemerton]

This is what the original d20 Star Wars game did, calling them Wounds and Vitality.

And also was put forward by Roger Musson in an early White Dwarf article called "How to Lose Hit Points and Survive".

 

[Phaezen]

Some interesting ideas. In the 3.x game I am playing at the moment we use wound points based on con. If you are in woundpoints, you are fatigued. For recovering wound points, we treat them as ability damage, so you recover one a day unless you have access to restoration spells.

FOr my 4e game next year, I am considering using the lingering wound system from Ari's Advanced Players Guide.

On a tangent:

Hit points……………..the final frontier. These are the voyages of the circular arguments…..

Circular Arguments would be an awesome name for a Gnome skyship.

Phaezen

 

[DarkKestral]

I'd argue that it might be possible to instead add bits to the conditoins already in 4e.

I'd get rid of Saga's penalties somewhat (I might add some in for certain types of OFFENSIVE actions, but make things like Second Wind more generally effective in those conditions to compensate. So the game pushes even more offensively-minded players to preserve their own HP pool when it gets low) and make more effects that trigger when those thresholds are reached. However, I think a good balance would be to have classes of effects or powers which are specifically only accessible during those cases, and to have them be separate from the main attack power pool; in essence either one-shot powerful "Limit Break" types of effects that do damage or term on-going effects that add to the effects that you already do but sacrifice the spike damage associated with the other class, and have both offensive and defensive sets of effects (so whatever happens, the player benefits)

I'm also thinking that either classes or roles could have some different benefits baked in that give them special stuff that activates when down that far that don't go under that class and which reinforce their general theme. (For example, when a fighter first becomes Wounded (which could be a condition associated with being sub-25% of max HP) he could gain an additional +2 to his defenses and AC for the next 2 rounds, and his attack bonus increased by 2 when making OAs, so that he becomes 'stickier' but less likely to actually take significant damage.)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

...That’s the basics, enough rambling for now. The concept is generic enough to use with any edition. Thanks for reading.

Hi ExploderWizard,
It looks like I just started writing my hit point thread just as you were posting yours. Our ideas are similar but quite different at the same time. We both agree on the separation of hit points into their constituent parts: ability to take physical damage and then everything else. However it's the differences that are interesting. I'd appreciate it if you could hop over to my thread and have a look, see what you think.

Essentially, I think there is too much of a struggle to add this idea on to either 3E or 4E. While a lot of areas would mesh really well, some corner cases would be very jarring. I think the only way how to do it would be to start this concept as a base, and build the rest of the game around it - a new edition effectively.

For example, I would expand upon the concept of vitality points to include many of the narrative ideas people have been discussing on other threads - and if you see my thread, I would go one step further and tie in the power/feat/ability mechanics too.

As for damage output exceeding your wound point threshold, rather than mucking around with wps, I would adjust damage done into more of an absolute scale, rather than the relative scales in 3e and 4e.

Anyway, thanks for posting, I think we both agree that its a hurdle we'd like the next iteration of D&D to address.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[ExploderWizard]

Essentially, I think there is too much of a struggle to add this idea on to either 3E or 4E. While a lot of areas would mesh really well, some corner cases would be very jarring. I think the only way how to do it would be to start this concept as a base, and build the rest of the game around it - a new edition effectively.


Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

The body point system was originally written for my own complete system. I just took some basic concepts out of it to make it more usable with D&D editions.

The whole idea behind body points NOT scaling is because thats what hit points are for. Body points do not take hero status into account ( other than having a super high CON, that is) and that is intentional.

The problem with scaling the body points is that they then just become another abstract pool of hit points thats called something else. A hero can last in a fight because he is a hero. A hero cannot sustain a greatsword through the chest because he is a hero.

The body point concept might not work for everyone. If you want a hero to be able to stand up and carry on the fight, no matter how physically wounded, from warlord style healing then body points are the wrong answer.

 

[Irda Ranger]

The body point concept might not work for everyone. If you want a hero to be able to stand up and carry on the fight, no matter how physically wounded, from warlord style healing then body points are the wrong answer.

Yup. That's why I don't use 'em. I think the cockyness of a 10th level Fighter is one of the features of D&D.

But I recognize the problem that HP can't be all things to all men. My solution here is to have various conditions imposed by specific attack vectors. Poisons never cause you to lose HP, they just subject you to Weakness, Paralysis, etc.

I have also created a little Injury System. Basically I don't use Negative HP; you either have Positive or Zero. Once you're at Zero each hit starts imposing Injuries that impose conditions (broken arms, severed limbs, severe leg wounds, etc.) and eventually Death. Hit Points are easily recovered through short rests; but Injuries require magic or weeks of rest to recover from.

Full rules here.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yup. That's why I don't use 'em. I think the cockyness of a 10th level Fighter is one of the features of D&D.

Probably leading off-topic, but what about having actually different "combat resolution" rules.

One could have an "awesome action scene" combat resolution mode, full with hit points and minions dropping left and right.

And you could have the "dramatic action scene" - this is where it counts, and a single error can kill you.

For example:
- Villain sends a few thugs against you. Mode: Awesome Action Scene. Party enters combat and kills them a dozen.
- Villain accomponies a group of his Minions to capture you. Mode: Dramatic Action Scene. The 4 Crossbow Archers directed by the Villain are a lethal threat. If you engage him, a single bolt will kill you.

Of course, this has nothing to do with realism and everything with facilitating the different way action is resolved in movies...
Torg does this, to a lesser extend - the basic resolution rules stay the same, but in a "dramatic scene", the initiative rules give more benefits to the NPCs then usual.

But I recognize the problem that HP can't be all things to all men. My solution here is to have various conditions imposed by specific attack vectors. Poisons never cause you to lose HP, they just subject you to Weakness, Paralysis, etc.

I have also created a little Injury System. Basically I don't use Negative HP; you either have Positive or Zero. Once you're at Zero each hit starts imposing Injuries that impose conditions (broken arms, severed limbs, severe leg wounds, etc.) and eventually Death. Hit Points are easily recovered through short rests; but Injuries require magic or weeks of rest to recover from.

Full rules here.

I haven't read your thread, so maybe this is covered: If using this as a 4E "mod", I would ensure that anything that can only be healed by magic can only be healed by rituals, not regular spells or prayers. I don#t want to make Warlords obsolete, but I can accept someone in the party picking up the Ritual Caster feat!

 

[mmadsen]

Basically I don't use Negative HP; you either have Positive or Zero. Once you're at Zero each hit starts imposing Injuries that impose conditions (broken arms, severed limbs, severe leg wounds, etc.) and eventually Death. Hit Points are easily recovered through short rests; but Injuries require magic or weeks of rest to recover from.

Did you borrow this from Warhammer, or did you independently stumble across the idea?

 

[mmadsen]

How would you deal with things like poison and level drain - things that need to hit the body in order to deal damage?

Once we accept that hit points aren't physical toughness, a lot of opportunities become obvious. For instance, why not allow hit points to be used against to-hit rolls, not just against damage rolls? You needed a 12 to hit me, and you rolled a 16? I'll spend 4 hit points to avoid your poison dart.