D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Sagiro]

A few notes from my perspective:
- My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.

Really? I'm surprised to hear you say this, since I think most of us were moving (in addition to attacking) almost every round. Understand that 40% of us are rogues, and for a rogue, every movement consideration pales in comparison to flanking for sneak attacks. Logan and Cobalt were constantly moving to maintain flanking on our enemies.

Also, as a group, we have very few (in fact, I think zero) powers that move our enemies around. I guess we could bull-rush, but that never seems as good as just using a power. As such, a bonfire (for instance) is much more a danger to us than our enemies, and so there's not much we can do to take advantage of it. (In fact, we'd want to stay away from it, so as not risk getting pushed/pulled/slid into it.)

Still, you could be right. Can you think of an example where we failed to use a tactical element in a clearly (or even not so clearly) beneficial way?

 

[Piratecat]

Well, when you were standing beside the guillotine of gobbler slicing. And there was the hellfire cannon in the gobbler trophy room, but you weren't really looking around. Oh, and the collapsing ceiling of quite significant pain that you could have triggered over the King's head if you'd pulled on the hanging lamp...

Hee.

Seriously, I can think of one or two possibilities (kicking over the stewpot onto the gobbler beside the baby, for instance), but it hadn't quite occurred to me that no one has any powers that slide enemies around. That will gradually change as you level, depending on what people want to pick.

Watching the flanking movement was really pretty. If Kodiak ends up joining and we get a third rogue in the group, I fear for my enemies.

 

[Sagiro]

Well, when you were standing beside the guillotine of gobbler slicing. And there was the hellfire cannon in the gobbler trophy room, but you weren't really looking around. Oh, and the collapsing ceiling of quite significant pain that you could have triggered over the King's head if you'd pulled on the hanging lamp...

You know, just because my character has a -1 "bonus" to Perception Checks, you don't have to rub it in!

 

[WizarDru]

I think Caldwell was the only one who hadn’t used their Daily. (Hey, Blackjack... is that true? And if so, what were you waiting for?

At one of our 4e test games, the party was facing down the final boss in Keep on the Shadowfell and getting pasted pretty badly (evil tentacles, unholy portal, etc.). One of the players was debating using his Daily but was hesitant, fearing he might waste it. The party warlock stood up and yelled "What are you waiting for, a rainy day? Well, look outside...IT'S POURING, BITCH!" This ended the debate.

Outstanding write-up, by the way. I only hope my 4e game can be this interesting out of the gate. I am curious about PC's comment about movement. Sagiro, did you perceive the party as being overly cautious with regards to movement. For that matter, did you guys use a battlemap for this encounter or just fudge it?

 

[Sagiro]

I am curious about PC's comment about movement. Sagiro, did you perceive the party as being overly cautious with regards to movement. For that matter, did you guys use a battlemap for this encounter or just fudge it?

See my above post re: movement. I thought we were moving around quite a bit. Heck, I burned my Action Point in the boss battle just to get the extra movement I needed to launch a first round sneak-attack. The only caution we showed, was when Logan, wounded and out of Healing Surges, didn't charge into battle against the longsword-wielding Gobbler King. Can't really blame him for that!

We always use a battlemat and minis (and colored glass globs for most baddies) for non-trivial combats; I can't speak for the other players, but I a) find it invaluable because I have trouble envisioning complex spaces without it, and b) love it because I'm a board-gamer at heart, and like to see all the tactical possibilities spread out for examination.

 

[Piratecat]

It may just be my perception, which isn't necessarily holding up well as I consider the game. I cordially retract it. This is what I get for even considering a duel to the death on a balcony overlooking an arena full of gobblers!

 

[Sagiro]

It may just be my perception, which isn't necessarily holding up well as I consider the game. I cordially retract it. This is what I get for even considering a duel to the death on a balcony overlooking an arena full of gobblers!

That balcony was, to me, the scariest thing about that fight -- I'm glad the combat didn't take place close to it, and things were most in jeopardy when the King tried to flee toward it. Consider the possibilities of *anything* happening near that balcony:

1. A PC gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. Assured PC death.

2. A Gobbler gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. 100 gobblers become alerted to the combat, and rush around to fight us. Likely TPK.

3. Fighting occurs close enough to the balcony that the 100 gobblers below see that intruders are fighting their King! See results from #2.

I though the balcony and proximate arena were fantastic dramatic elements, but tactically I wanted nooooooo part of them!

 

[Hypersmurf]

- My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.

Something I'm finding, as well, is that Mobile Monsters encourage Mobile Characters.

In the dinosaur fight just gone, the raptors were skirmishers who gained a bonus to AC and damage in any round they moved more than four squares (plus they got one free unthreatened square following a bite attack)... so it was to their advantage to move all over the battlemat. And so every couple of rounds, the PCs had to move in order to engage a target... and we got lots of vine-swinging and tree-climbing, and Coraline Thunderwaving dinosaurs into the river to be eaten by piranha.

I think if the dinosaurs had been standing in one place and chomping at people, the PCs would have been more inclined to stand-and-slog as well.

(Not entirely, since you guys rock, but I think it made a difference to the nature of the combat.)

-Hyp.

 

[Rel]

That balcony was, to me, the scariest thing about that fight -- I'm glad the combat didn't take place close to it, and things were most in jeopardy when the King tried to flee toward it. Consider the possibilities of *anything* happening near that balcony:

1. A PC gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. Assured PC death.

2. A Gobbler gets tossed over the edge into an arena of 100 gobblers. 100 gobblers become alerted to the combat, and rush around to fight us. Likely TPK.

3. Fighting occurs close enough to the balcony that the 100 gobblers below see that intruders are fighting their King! See results from #2.

I though the balcony and proximate arena were fantastic dramatic elements, but tactically I wanted nooooooo part of them!

That was my very first thought when I read the post describing the battle. I was thinking, "Man, if they get on that balcony and the gobblers down below look up and see them...that's gonna suck!"

 

[el-remmen]

My players are still somewhat in the 3e mindset when it comes to moving in combat. No one used any environmental objects to aid in combat, and they didn't move around a whole lot (to the extent that someone second-guessed one character who did move.) I think this will change with time. I'll need to keep creating fight locations with Neat Things You Can Do (tm) to encourage this.

As you know, encounter environment is my specialty! My question for you Kev is how did you clue in the players that there was stuff they could interact with in the environment, or did you just decribe it and let them decide, or was it a matter of them never being in a position to notice the possibilities?

One of the things I like to do is have opportunities for a fight to be broken up over an area with various levels, so have people jumping down and climbing up and able to get tactical superiority over those below them, etc. . . Of course, having a goal for the encounter (like save a baby) really helps to get people moving, just by having the target move - or having to move to prevent foes from reaching some crucial spot or object.