4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[ExploderWizard]

Equating personal opinion with truth I call agression. Its dismissive of other opinions.

To be fair 4E is not the first edition to include superpowers.

Psionics are an implementation of superpowers that have been around since the early days.

As a subsystem such powers are ok. When ingrained into the core, the very nature of the game changes.

 

[Fifth Element]

I didn't intend to be aggressive in any way. The truth isn't an aggressive animal. It is what it is.

Truth? You don't see the problem when you're referring to your opinion as "truth"?

Your dividing line between a fantasy game and a supers game seems to be arbitrary. Apparently it's based on the mechanics, since you talk about replacing trappings and settings and it remaining the same type of game.

So your personal interpretation of what is a "super power" and what is "heroic ability" (for lack of a better term) is what informs your decision as to whether something is a supers game or a fantasy game.

But please don't call it truth. That's very presumptuous.

 

[Fifth Element]

To be fair 4E is not the first edition to include superpowers.

Psionics are an implementation of superpowers that have been around since the early days.

So psionics are superpowers, but magic is not? In mechanical terms (which you must be referring to), the psionics system is just another way to implement magic.

 

[Obryn]

Who cares about the quote? I know us gamers are known for being overly sensitive and righteous types, but hasn't this gone a bit too far?

I don't really care so much about the quote itself. But when people in a debate start accusing others of basically revising history or fabricating details... Well, I think it's good to clear that up as quickly as possible so we can get back to a productive discussion.

Also, fwiw, I think the blog post looks a lot better in the rear-view mirror than it did at first - better enough that at least a few people thought they were reading something different than they originally did. I think that may be instructive.

-O

 

[pawsplay]

Truth? You don't see the problem when you're referring to your opinion as "truth"?

What kind of opinion would it be if he called it falsehood? I think there is room enough for many truths, and for people to persuade on behalf of the one they trust.

 

[Hussar]

To be fair 4E is not the first edition to include superpowers.

Psionics are an implementation of superpowers that have been around since the early days.

As a subsystem such powers are ok. When ingrained into the core, the very nature of the game changes.

See, what you claim as "truth" is simply your take on things. Me, I look at, say, a 8th level AD&D party and they are taking on armies of GIANTS. That's not mundane, that's extremely superheroic. GODS do that sort of thing in myth. Normal guys take on one, maybe two giants. But a couple of dozen at the same time?

And that's where the big disconnect comes. People have a particular view of how the game used to be based on their own experiences. We then try to project those experiences onto a larger whole, as if our own personal experiences were some how universal.

Heck, I'm certainly not the only one who used the Dieties and Demigods as a high level Monster Manual. I know that I'm not. So, when you try to claim "truth" it's really nothing of the sort. It's simply how you played.

 

[Fifth Element]

Really? I wouldn't say ALL.

A third level AD&D fighter, while better with weapons, is still a fairly mundane soldier.

A fifth level AD&D thief is very much a regular guy with a few special skills.

So we can see your definition narrowing. A "supers game" is one in which all characters have superpowers.

But how about moving on. Is a 20th-level AD&D fighter still a mundane soldier? 3rd-level 4E fighters are still pretty mundane really.

Clerics and Magic Users perform more spectacular spells as they gain levels but it is MAGIC after all.

What's the difference between magic and psionics, other than the flavour?

Sure once you get to 3E and give rogues and fighters magic-like abilities at higher levels it starts looking kind of supers like.

Looks like you're backtracking. High-level 3E "starts looking kind of supers like", whereas 4E, which presumably you equate closely with high-level 3E in terms of how the characters all have superpowers, is "a supers game".

 

[ExploderWizard]

May I point out that any supers game is, almost by definition, also a fantasy game? And that one could make the argument that the reverse is also true?


RC

While this certainly can happen and I agree that supers games are also fantasy ( or else I believe in real superpowers) there are elements from fantasy that are hard to replicate with a supers oriented system.

A Lankhmar game with fighter and thief PC's who are not exactly heroic would be hard to pull of if every PC gets powers issued by default.

Fantasy can have the magic elements turned up or down to suit the game.

 

[Hussar]

What kind of opinion would it be if he called it falsehood? I think there is room enough for many truths, and for people to persuade on behalf of the one they trust.

Since when does opinion=truth? To me truth=fact. Opinion is simply my best guess at the facts. Or a believe that X may be fact in lieu of any determining evidence.

Conflating personal preferences with facts is a very bad practice.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't think supers is something you are going to be be able to establish by the presence or absence of some specific elements. It's an overall tone and style. Pointing out that a game does nor does not have a specific element and therefore is/isn't supers is a classic strawman argument.