4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[WalterKovacs]

I wouldn't say never. If your bad dude walked into a bar full of robots which were not programmed to respond to such commands (golems) or islanders who only spoke an obscure foreign language would the power still work? If so why?

Even if they didn't speak the language, they are likely to understand body languague of someone challenging them to a fight. If it's unintelligent undead, maybe you make yourself appear a bit more appetizing for their "tastes".

Anyone you are fighting against in D&D is going to have some reason for attacking you in the first place. While an argument could be made that there should be some creatures TOO intelligent to go after the fighter ... a creature being "too stupid" to go after the fighter doesn't necessarily exist, because if it wouldn't attack the fighter why is it attacking the group in the first place?

The big thing though is ... having a power that, in a FEW circumstances, doesn't make sense was deemed better than having to track a list of examples and counterexamples. If each power had to be crossreferenced to monsters that it would or would not work against, it would make it "make sense", at the cost of making the game a LOT more complicated for players and DMs.

There are a couple of exceptions where they leave certain monster types out of the situation (for example grabbing and pushing, etc sometimes have size restrictions involved to avoid grabbing or pushing around really big creatures. However that has to do with "how easy is it to define the exceptional monsters?"

Basically, it would be a lot more work to create a way to define when the power doesn't work than to just let it always work. Similarly, they could make the power only work part of the time, but then they are just putting a power into the book that says "unless your DM decides to let you use this, just pick a different power". [Which is another option for people that hate "magical, but only in specific situations, but because there is at least one situation, even if that situation never comes up, the power is magical" powers ... just don't use them. There are a number of other powers available to choose from]. Part of the design of 4e was addressing problems that SOME PLAYERS had with 3.5. Anyone that has played a rogue has run into at least a few monsters with "character resistance: rogue" that disables one of your defining class features, and your main source of dealing out damage. Having players that stop working against certain types of monsters was not fun, for some players. Instead of having powers that onl work some of the time, they had works that work all the time [but only to a limited number of times 1/enc or 1/day], and make sense most of the time.

 

[SteveC]

Just a nugget of food for thought, 4e wouldn't have come to be if people didn't have complaints just like this about 3e. What would've happened if those complainers simply stopped complaining when they were told 3e had no flaws?

I think this is an interesting point. For me, the problems with 3E only became problems at higher levels, and were compounded when additional splat material was introduced.

I think that a number of design decisions for 3E work very well up to a certain point, and that the original designers had a good handle on how everything fit together. The problem was that most of the system's design rules weren't explicitly spelled out, and when the original designers moved on, a number of new people came in who didn't understand the ground rules.

Power creep + poor system management = bloated out of control rules.

Will 4E be any better? I believe they have made the new system's design rules more transparent, so I hope the result will be better. I don't believe that Martial Power is unbalanced in terms of the core PHB (from what I've read), so they have at least started off well.

--Steve

 

[WalterKovacs]

When the system actively interferes with immersion then yes, it does not seem to be as geared towards deep roleplaying as ones that do not actively interfere with immersion.

GM: The Goblin strikes at you. Take 9 damage.
PC: That bloodies me. Ok. Thaglec stumbles back clutching his wounded arm then he..
GM: No, I don't want to call that a wound in case it gets healed by an inspiring word.
PC: What?
GM: If it gets healed by the cleric, then it was a wound. If it get healed by the warlord, or resting it was just shaken morale.
PC: But Thaglec is a foppish swashbuckler, when do I get to make quips about ruining my wardrobe while running people through?
GM: Just wait till after the battle then retcon in your dialouge.
PC: ...

Once wounded, you will never stop bleeding without magic ... all the fighters have the inability to clot. As your warlord sees you bleeding there, they yells out to suck it up and put some dirt on it. Your friend's words help you keep your focus, and you try to keep concious long enough to get to the end of the fight and tend to your wounds more seriously.

You have a limited number of healing surges per day ... they allow you to "patch up" wounds and fight through the pain. However, it takes magic to give you a significant ammount of REAL healing without using a surge. However, without getting a full night's sleep, you can't "heal" indefinitely.

Or better yet please explain to me how a PC would describe from a first person perspective what it feels like to get healed by a healing strike from a cleric of Pelor. Remember that it only works if it draws blood (or shakes morale).

Your ally smacks the enemy in the face, and you feel that it is possible to win, and thus you suck it up and keep going.

You may have gotten hit with a wound. But, JUST LIKE IN ANY VERSION OF D&D the wound didn't cause you to start bleeding. You were not on the ground dying, and you weren't taking damage every turn, so the wound, while painful, is not life threatening in and of itself. You aren't at the risk of bleeding to death JUST LIKE IN EVERY OTHER VERSION OF THE GAME. So, when you get "healed", you just raise your pain threshold once more, prolonging the time before you collapse, going into shock, and perhaps even die.

Death by three failed saves: Went into shock, slipped into coma and died
Death by reaching negative bloodied: Outright slain by a single blow ... see also coup de gras.

 

[cangrejoide]

Wow after fianlly reading this whole thread I have just one thing to ask...

When did imagination died for you guys?

 

[WalterKovacs]

An ogre with reach?

Does he have threatening reach? If not, he has a reason to want to get close.

A halfling with a sling?

He may also have a melee weapon. He may be able to provide a flank. If you are about to pass out, he has to be next to you to coup de gras. The more enemies that surround you, the less chance YOU have to run away. It may not be advantageous for him on his own, but if all the nearby enemies are surrounding you, they can box you in and keep you from moving, because of a lot of OAs, and perhaps even not giving you any places to move to. This applies to most of the rest, so I'll only go with the exceptions.

An enemy trying to run away? (Possible on a readied action)

He seems to be having a hard time running away if he's within range of the power. Also, his reason for running away might also be a reason to try to finish the fighter off when the fighter seems to be on the brink of dropping.

A warlock with no melee weapon?

In addition to the above, the warlock has access to some close powers. Not to mention, warlocks often have the ability to teleport away, so they could get in close, give someone a flank, and then pop away without worrying about getting away from the sticky fighter.

A Purple Fungus?

A purple fungus cannot shift. The power does not SLIDE. It does not PULL. It forces the opponent to shift. It gives someone WITH THE ABILITY TO MOVE enough movement/speed to be able to shift 2 squares, even though most can only shift 1. Since a purple fungus can't move, it can't shift, and thus "fails" to shift towards the fighter.

An aboleth in the water 3 squares away from a fighter on land?

If you can see the aboleth (a requirement of the power) it can concievably see you as well. Since the aboleth is an enemy/involved in a fight with you, it does want to fight you. Heck, it wants to get in close and get a flank to get free attacks because of combat advantage, not to mention the closer it is, the more it's aura is beneficial because the fighter would be very unlikely to get out of the aura while next to the aboleth. Other aboleth might prefer ranged attacks, but they all have auras and close attacks that can be advantageous in moving next to the fighter.

Does it work if the fighter in invisible and silenced? Does it work on sleeping foes?

On invisible and silenced: MOST invisibility spells would involve you becoming visible when you attack. Also, monsters can "find" you while invisible using their perception against stealth. If you deliberately failed your stealth, they would be able to find the fighter. In the case of invisible and silenced ... you may drop something that becomes visible because it's no longer on your person, or you may emit some odour to let creatures with scent find you. By "giving away" your position, the enemies try to swarm around you and thus box you in and keep you in place, because then it's easier to attack you since they know where you are.

On sleeping foes: Sleeping foes can't move, see fungus.

 

[pawsplay]

4E doesn't sweat the little details that immersion-heads seem to require. It even says it does not. "4E: we don't sweat the little details. Just play the damn game already!" Its built right into the core of the system. Its like complaining that tires are black.

I don't have a problem with that. I just find 4e, with its dozens of powers and bonuses and sliding and pushing and stuff to be a big drag in that department.

 

[rounser]

A purple fungus cannot shift. The power does not SLIDE. It does not PULL. It forces the opponent to shift.

Just as it does not slide nor pull, this purple fungus does not tarry to the east. It is not wearing overalls. It does not hum a sea shanty as it forces it's opponent to shift.

As far as you can tell, this purple fungus has not made a hat out of a barracuda and deigned to wear it.

Num num num num num...

 

[LostSoul]

Dominate Person allowed players to take control of NPCs in a far more long-lasting (1 day/level) and far more customizable way. Saying that Come and Get It gives players the ability to control NPCs in a way they never have before is ignoring the previous versions of the game. But I'm guessing this will be waved away as okay, since "a wizard did it."

It does so with a saving throw. That's an important difference.

Wow. Just wow.

Of course it's going to be "waved way as okay, since a wizard did it," because it makes perfect sense -- in the game world -- that a wizard with a mind-control spell would mind-control someone.

What part of "Some bad guys move in close to the fighter and he strikes at them" doesn't make sense in the game world?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It does so with a saving throw. That's an important difference.

It appears to be so. But then, why do we grant a dice roll this kind of power over an NPC? Is there something inherent to it that makes it more believable to us? Or is it just our years or decades of trainings that this is what saves do and how such powers work?

In literature, I often have the impression that there are no "saves" against mental domination. If the enemy wizard wants to dominate you, he just does. Only if your friends try to speak you out of it you get your chance to resist it And how often does that fail? Is there really a save or are the friends using their Per Episode "Break Enchantment" power that automatically frees you?

You see where I am aiming at - we are more or less conditioned to assume that these powers are handled via saves or attacks. But the stories that employ these powers often don't hint at that at all, things just work. But they are not used all the time. SOmething is limiting that. Maybe a specific ritual is required, maybe the protagonists need first to find out the right words. But does this have to be described as attack rolls or skill checks, or can't it just as well be described with the characters using a power that is limited by encounter or day or another, arbitrary timeframe?

 

[mmadsen]

What part of "Some bad guys move in close to the fighter and he strikes at them" doesn't make sense in the game world?

It's not Some bad guys move in close to the fighter and he strikes at them. Bad guys can close in on the fighter and get attacked just fine without come and get in getting invoked. It's All bad guys are compelled to move in close to the fighter, whether or not they could, of their own volition, make that move, and regardless of their nature and disposition.

Just what exactly is the fighter doing? If it's fundamentally different each time -- and it seems like it would have to be -- then what does it mean for a character to have come and get it on his character sheet? Is there any in-game explanation? Or is it just a board-game power?