Observations on Adventure Paths

[Betote]

I've run Age of Worms (up until a TPK in "The Champion's Belt"), and am currently running Rise of the Runelords (we're in the middle of "The Hook Mountain Massacre"). Although I loved Whispering Cairn, I find RotRL better, because it manages to maintain a theme while introducing variations in the different installments. If I had to run a 6+ months campaign with the same enemies and adventures over and over again, I'd go crazy.

Plus, I like the fact that Sandpoint is never too far away from the PCs, so they can get to care for its NPCs and that'd still be important during the last stages of the campaign.

As for Second Darkness, I'm with MerricB in that the modules seem a little disconnected (I've only read the 2 first ones and flipped through the 3rd), and I definitely want my PCs to care more about Riddleport and their business. So, I've thought of 2 possible options when I run it:

* Write another introductory module for the AP and use "Shadow in the Sky" to start another Riddleport (or maybe Sigil)-based campaign.
* Rewrite some parts of the whole AP to make the PCs care more about Riddleport and "don't forget their roots".

I'll come to a conclusion when I read the whole AP. Anyway, when we finish RotRL I won't probably start a new D&D campaign until next spring-summer, because I want to have a try with other rpgs (Dark Heresy, Trail of Cthulhu, I'm looking at you ), and be a player for a while to "refresh" myself.

 

[Obryn]

As a player, I think that the analogy of APs to railroads is wrong. I think the better analogy is that of a puzzle. As a player, I look at the narrative of the AP and interact with it to try to find out what all the pieces are. Then, I try to get the "solution" in either the most efficient way (i.e. what's assumed by the writer) or the most creative manner (trying to use the author's assumptions against them to surprise the DM).

No, that's fair - but I think that's kind of what I'm saying. You, as a player, have bought into the fact that you're doing an Adventure Path. You're being creative within those confines - which is great - but any time you string 6-12 separate adventures together by their plot, you're going to have some railroading. It's a gentle railroad, with plenty of forks, but it has to be there - otherwise there'd be no "Path."

-O

 

[James Jacobs]

Yeah, I've long argued that a truly sandbox type adventure isn't really an adventure at all, it's a supplement or a gazetteer or a campaign setting. The strength of this format is, of course you can get a LOT of different adventures out of the book; the Isle of Dread is a classic example of an adventure that's more like a sourcebook. So is Dwellers of the Forbidden City.

Adventures themselves are as concerned with story and plot as they are with the setting though: in something like Queen of the Spiders or an Adventure Path, you get a stronger story but at the expense of lots of support material for the setting. For the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, we try to sneak in that support material in the supplementary articles like the gazetteers and the ecology-style writeups and the like, but the adventures themselves are generally more on the adventure side than the sourcebook side.

Anyway, keep the comments coming! I'm always looking for ways to improve Pathfinder, be they improvements to railroads or sandboxes!

 

[Hussar]

No, that's fair - but I think that's kind of what I'm saying. You, as a player, have bought into the fact that you're doing an Adventure Path. You're being creative within those confines - which is great - but any time you string 6-12 separate adventures together by their plot, you're going to have some railroading. It's a gentle railroad, with plenty of forks, but it has to be there - otherwise there'd be no "Path."

-O

Heh, I really wish there was a more neutral term than railroad. Gentle railroad is better I suppose. River? Strong nudges in the right direction?

But, I certainly agree here. It's all down to your group template. If you as the DM are about to do an AP, you've invested the next 6-18 months of gaming in one particular story line. It's only fair to get the players on board with that beforehand.

 

[Mr Baron]

AP Design stuff

Merric hits on some good points. How do you keep the characters motivated for the entire story arc? I do think this is easier for the shorter AP's, but the long ones (12+ parts) it can be quite a challenge. What's the right mix between sandbox and forced story line? I personally like a general story line with lots of side areas to explore.

Second Darkness is a bit of an odd duck as it tries to do a lot of things, and I think for this AP, they should have right into the Darklands. I would have been happy to see 1 PF of set up and 5 PF's of Darklands sandbox.

One of the things I like about Paizo is that they are willing to try new things and that they do take fan feedback. I am expecting good things from them.

PS...I am still hopefull to see a massive 6 PF Darklands AP, in the style of a large dungeon crawl.

 

[RangerWickett]

Not a railroad. A highway. You can get off whenever you want, but if the whole group decides to take a road trip to Boise, you might as well stay on the highway to Boise.

 

[Job]

I'm with Ranger Wickett on this one. I use an AP as a roadmap where the the players can get off the main highway for a time, wandering on the secondary highways or backroads for as long as they like, but I adjust the AP to subtly steer them back onto the main highway as they go along.

My players started with Shackled City and wandered off to the Styes, then Baba Yaga's Hut, and now they're working their way through the Temple of Elemental Evil. As they've gone along, I've simply adjusted the plotlines to include soulcages, and Shackled City NPC's, and eventually the roads will converge on Asylum, the final chapter.

Job.

 

[Psion]

Not a railroad. A highway. You can get off whenever you want, but if the whole group decides to take a road trip to Boise, you might as well stay on the highway to Boise.

Assuming you're going up 84, I'd just a soon take the Twin Falls exit and head to Jackpot.

 

[Mark]

Assuming you're going up 84, I'd just a soon take the Twin Falls exit and head to Jackpot.

It does sound like a place with more treasure.

 

[el-remmen]

One of the key things that, I think, you need to do is introduce the overall threat early in the piece.

I have recently discovered that this would have made my current campaign better. As I said before, it is based on STAP, but a lot more loose - However, I introduced all sorts of different plot elements trying to avoid the feeling that everything is contrived and giving the PCs a lot of different hooks into the main threat/thread of adventures. But what I have succeeded in doing is muddying things so much that there is constant friction in the group about the best way to proceed/succeed.

I have decided I need to make the campaign more linear and the adventures themselves more 'sand-box' style. Thus, they can go along from point to point, but have a sense of freedom in any given area. In other words, I need to simply.