Do you like XP costs for magic item creation?

[Treebore]

Er, when are you losing levels here?

OK, I give! Which splat book says you can't lose levels creating magic items? I can't find anything in the 3.5 DMG section for making magic items. Or are you talking 4E? Or is it in those extensive FAQ's? Errata?

 

[Psion]

OK, I give! Which splat book says you can't lose levels creating magic items? I can't find anything in the 3.5 DMG section for making magic items. Or are you talking 4E? Or is it in those extensive FAQ's? Errata?

I'm not talking about 4e. I am a 4e-non-adopter.

I don't know where it says it right off, but I thought it was cited upthread. So far as I know, you can never voluntarily pay an XP cost that would cause you to lose a level.

So really, that's less bookwork than characters who are gaining levels faster than you.

I've never like CON loss as a cost, mainly because with XP loss, I always felt I could make it up. I don't like permanently setting characters backwards, which feel too much like a point deficit, like a GURPS Disadvantage.

 

[Treebore]

I'm not talking about 4e. I am a 4e-non-adopter.

I don't know where it says it right off, but I thought it was cited upthread. So far as I know, you can never voluntarily pay an XP cost that would cause you to lose a level.

So really, that's less bookwork than characters who are gaining levels faster than you.

I've never like CON loss as a cost, mainly because with XP loss, I always felt I could make it up. I don't like permanently setting characters backwards, which feel too much like a point deficit, like a GURPS Disadvantage.

Normally CON loss never sets anyone back permanently. Restoration works. Plus, unlike XP's, you never have to worry about losing your CON permanently. The time frame in Greater Restoration only applies to level loss. No time limit is given when it talks about restoring permanently lost attribute points.

So the only way CON is permanently lost is if the DM never gives the opportunity/means with which to regain it.

 

[Dragon Snack]

So, in effect, you are suggesting that creating a magic item should mean nothing more than a minor inconvenience and some gold to someone who has a 7th+ level Cleric for a friend (or is one themselves)? Why not just increase the costs to craft them and skip the whole "I need to get a Restoration spell cast on me"?

And not only does that shaft lower level characters, how do you reconcile this with costs to Brew Potions or Scribe Scrolls? Are these not 'magic items' anymore and therefor don't drain CON? Or are these made for "free" (since they're not "real" magic items)? I doubt very many people would brew some CLW potions in exchange for losing even one point of CON...

OK, I give! Which splat book says you can't lose levels creating magic items? I can't find anything in the 3.5 DMG section for making magic items. Or are you talking 4E? Or is it in those extensive FAQ's? Errata?

3.5 PHB, pg 88: ITEM CREATION FEATS: XP Cost (it's the third paragraph).

It's certainly not hidden anywhere.

 

[Treebore]

So, in effect, you are suggesting that creating a magic item should mean nothing more than a minor inconvenience and some gold to someone who has a 7th+ level Cleric for a friend (or is one themselves)? Why not just increase the costs to craft them and skip the whole "I need to get a Restoration spell cast on me"?

And not only does that shaft lower level characters, how do you reconcile this with costs to Brew Potions or Scribe Scrolls? Are these not 'magic items' anymore and therefor don't drain CON? Or are these made for "free" (since they're not "real" magic items)? I doubt very many people would brew some CLW potions in exchange for losing even one point of CON...


3.5 PHB, pg 88: ITEM CREATION FEATS: XP Cost (it's the third paragraph).

It's certainly not hidden anywhere.

As to your Brew Potions and Scribe Scrolls comment, if you think its worth the book keeping, go ahead and do it. I don't think it is, so why bother giving them a cost? So its not really that I think it shouldn't have a cost, its just not a cost worth worrying about or tracking. If you think it is, go ahead.

Thanks for pointing out page 88 to me. Figures its not in the DMG. Where "Creating Magic Items" is located. Such a cost definitely shouldn't be mentioned in such a chapter. Sorry for the sarcasm. During the 5 years I played and ran 3E I asked myself many, many times why they couldn't put the rules about the same topic all in one place. They say one thing on Page 88 of the PH, but then say nothing about it in the DMG in the section for it.

 

[Dragon Snack]

I could easily dump non-gp costs for Brewing Potions and Scribing Scrolls. Actually, my players rarely make these anyway, since I include lots of consumables as treasure.

I agree about having to find information spread out all over the 3.x books. Some is in the PHB, some is in the DMG, one is listed in one section, another is listed in the glossary...

 

[El Mahdi]

So, in effect, you are suggesting that creating a magic item should mean nothing more than a minor inconvenience and some gold to someone who has a 7th+ level Cleric for a friend (or is one themselves)? Why not just increase the costs to craft them and skip the whole "I need to get a Restoration spell cast on me"?

And not only does that shaft lower level characters, how do you reconcile this with costs to Brew Potions or Scribe Scrolls? Are these not 'magic items' anymore and therefor don't drain CON? Or are these made for "free" (since they're not "real" magic items)? I doubt very many people would brew some CLW potions in exchange for losing even one point of CON...




3.5 PHB, pg 88: ITEM CREATION FEATS: XP Cost (it's the third paragraph).

It's certainly not hidden anywhere.

That's why I would advocate a temporary loss of Constitution, with the amount and duration of the loss determined by the level/XP/Price-in-Gold of the item. Recovery could be at a set rate, such as 1 point of Constitution per day (or longer if you want it to have more of an impact, or restrict the number of magic items being made). That would eliminate the need for a Restoration spell (but not the benefit).

edit: I also like the idea of temporarily lowering casting ability. As was said further up-thread, this could be modeled n 4E also by simply reducing the number of Encounter Powers or some such.

I don't think it shafts low level characters, but it does add some realistic scaling. Low level Wizards shouldn't be able to make powerful magic items. And, as someone else submitted further up post, only make the loss for items that require a Permanency spell. That way it doesn't affect creating potions and scrolls.



As to pg. 88, looking at the beginning of the Feats section is the last place I would have looked for Item Creation guidelines. It is a bit hidden. That would have made more sense under the Item Creation Feat itself or in the Magic Items section in the DMG (of course then players wouldn't have easy access to it).

Even though you can't expend enough XP to lose a level, you can essentially trade an entire levels worth of XP for item creation. Whether losing a level, or not gaining a level, the end result is the same in that respect. I think the reason they designed it this way, was to keep players from trading in already gained levels to make high powered magic items. That could quickly unbalance the game with items way more powerful than the level of the campaign, and create a bookeeping nightmare with figuring out new stats, skills and what skills/feats you lose (based an when you gained them). Also, it would lower the pary level, making the DM have to rescale encounters. I think that was just a big nightmare they were attempting to avoid.

 

[RFisher]

I voted no, because I’m not particularly crazy about it.

But since I tend to see XP as the currency of the game more than as really representative of experience, I don’t conceptually have any more difficulty with it than with undead level drain. (Which I’m on record as supporting.)

 

[Wombat]

I don't like them, but this is mainly on a philosophical level.

What do these XP represent? Why is the character giving them up to create a magical item?

Our group eventually came up with this concept -- XP represents how quickly a character advances, thus the XP represent one's knowledge and memory of events, the experiences that actually go into advancing. As such, giving up XP is like giving up part of yourself, your training, even your mind and memory. Each time you create an item, you give a bit of yourself.

This made magical items much creepier (and rarer!) in our games.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Each time you create an item, you give a bit of yourself.

That was my thought process when I opened up the XP donation to any PC involved in the item creation process.

Besides, its very much in the letter and spirit of many legends about the creation of magic items...and there are even formulae for steel that include things like a drop of human blood, the breath of the weaponsmith, and the like (thus infusing the weapon made from the steel with a spirit).