Do you like XP costs for magic item creation?

[FireLance]

Not necessarily, it doesn't. I understand that you apparently prefer to conceptualize it that way, but it isn't the only way to do so.

Oh great. Until XP is reduced through energy drain or memory loss, we don't know what it represents. Are we going to have a multi-page discussion on Schrodinger's XP now?

 

[Mallus]

I scrapped the XP cost for magic items in my long-running 3e campaign. Minor items are purchased, more interesting items are crafted using of time, "power components" found while adventuring, and general creativity... ie, the more clever I think an item is, the more likely the players can whip it up, especially if it has a cool name and some built-in drawbacks.

Some examples of from the campaign are Burne's Thermocerebric Barrier --a metal helmet with a tiny smokestack on top than grants additional saving throws vs. charm and domination by delivering searing heat directly to the wearers cranium, in an attempt to 'snap them out of it' (the Barrier can severely injure the wearer) and Burne's Vegetative Buskins --magic boots which make the wearer immune to mental control at the same time they root them in place like a tree.

 

[Treebore]

Oh great. Until XP is reduced through energy drain or memory loss, we don't know what it represents. Are we going to have a multi-page discussion on Schrodinger's XP now?

Nope. At least not in 3.5E. The PH very clearly states on page 58 that XP is a:

"...measure how much your character has learned and how much he or she has grown in personal power."

So by that piece of RAW I am right. XP has nothing to do with life force.

However I see why the effects of Energy Drain confuse the issue. Plus I haven't read every other mention of XP in the PH and DMG, so there may very well be other wording that further confuses the point. Even though the definition of XP's on page 308 doesn't mention life force either.

 

[Delta]

"...how much he or she has grown in personal power."

You don't see your "person" as synonymous with your "life", nor "power" as a synonym for "force"?

 

[justanobody]

Nowhere in the mentioned post by justanobody, did he state or imply that this has never been a part of any edition of D&D. I'm pretty sure he was simply talking about what a few of us on this thread have been saying, that for us, the abstraction of "Experience" doesn't make sense when applied to "Lifeforce" - whether it is or isn't supported by, or stated in, the rules of any D&D edition - and not that it isn't, or never has been, historically, a part of D&D. I think trying to say he intended exactly that is just looking for any reason, no matter how small, to pick a fight. However...


I really don't remember how "Experience" was defined in 2E (and I don't have my books available),

Correct. Just like saying HP is morale or something, they do not translate that way.

Experience points (abbr. XP)--points a character earns (determined by the Dungeon Master) for completing an adventure, for doing something related to his class particularly well, or for solving a major problem. Experience points are accumulated, enabling the character to rise in level in his class, as shown in Table 14 for warriors, Table 20 for wizards, Table 23 for priests, and Table 25 for rogues.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Hit points--a number representing: 1. how much damage a character can suffer before being killed, determined by Hit Dice. The hit points lost to injury can usually be regained by rest or healing; 2. how much damage a specific attack does, determined by weapon or monster statistics, and subtracted from a player's total.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

From the 2e PHB revised glossary for your perusal.

"Lifeforce" would require touching the ability scores because this is the lifeforce of the character. 0 CON = death. 0 any score = death.

Searching the 2e core rules product there are only 2 places in ALL those books that mention "lifeforce". Spells and magic in the small section on druidical magic, and Accidental or violent death in the complete handbook of elves.

XP is not only what the glossary says, but what it represents. Why do you gain new abilities as you gain a level if it is just your "lifeforce"? Is XP a magical thing, or a mathematical representation of your accumulated knowledge?

Aging one like thw Wraith from Stargate Atlantis, or any other succubus does not really work in D&D, so they figured the easiest way to do it within the rules they created is all.

I mean when you think about what a succubus is it does age people, but if XP is lifeforce and you lose a level, it is really making you younger as you can go through those levels again, so losing/spending XP to make magic items gives a LOT more to the one doing it that you would seem.

Say the person who made 99000 GP worth of items then regain those easy XP with those extra items, and the cycle continues. With XP viewed in this way it is overly powerful and creates an infinite loop within the game to further disrupt the world economy worse than 3rd already did.

So XP represents class skills and knowledge being the reason you gain class abilities from it. It is a metagame concept and should remain there.

You want "lifeforce", look to CON and the other ability scores.

So thanks for trying to help make my position understood, and sorry, I stopped reading when the rules of 3rd appeared in your post as I REALLY want to forget that edition badly, but sure it was good stuff that you wrote about them, and tore them a new one.

 

[Dragon Snack]

Bleh, I voted I didn't like it, but after reading this thread I realize why we still use it.

It's simple, easy, and avoids stepping in the convoluted rationale for other costs.

Even if XP cost is a convoluted rationale in and of itself...

 

[der_kluge]

Nobody commented on my post from page 4, so I thought I'd post the link again.

Free PDF here:
Spell Slot item creation system.pdf

This is the spell slot item creation system. Someone 'round about page 5 suggested using up a number of spell slots based on the item's power. That's how this system works.

 

[El Mahdi]

Correct. Just like saying HP is morale or something, they do not translate that way.



From the 2e PHB revised glossary for your perusal.

"Lifeforce" would require touching the ability scores because this is the lifeforce of the character. 0 CON = death. 0 any score = death.

Searching the 2e core rules product there are only 2 places in ALL those books that mention "lifeforce". Spells and magic in the small section on druidical magic, and Accidental or violent death in the complete handbook of elves.

XP is not only what the glossary says, but what it represents. Why do you gain new abilities as you gain a level if it is just your "lifeforce"? Is XP a magical thing, or a mathematical representation of your accumulated knowledge?

Aging one like thw Wraith from Stargate Atlantis, or any other succubus does not really work in D&D, so they figured the easiest way to do it within the rules they created is all.

I mean when you think about what a succubus is it does age people, but if XP is lifeforce and you lose a level, it is really making you younger as you can go through those levels again, so losing/spending XP to make magic items gives a LOT more to the one doing it that you would seem.

Say the person who made 99000 GP worth of items then regain those easy XP with those extra items, and the cycle continues. With XP viewed in this way it is overly powerful and creates an infinite loop within the game to further disrupt the world economy worse than 3rd already did.

So XP represents class skills and knowledge being the reason you gain class abilities from it. It is a metagame concept and should remain there.

You want "lifeforce", look to CON and the other ability scores.

So thanks for trying to help make my position understood, and sorry, I stopped reading when the rules of 3rd appeared in your post as I REALLY want to forget that edition badly, but sure it was good stuff that you wrote about them, and tore them a new one.

Well, I don't know if I tore anyone a new one, and I definitely didn't attempt or intend to do that, I was just trying to make a logical conclusion based on the RAW and common sense. If others ideas or conceptualization of XP and lifeforce is different than this, it doesn't make them wrong (just misguided). Seriously though, there is no one right way to view this. Whatever works for each person is right. You and I just happen to have the same basic idea on this one, and that's cool. But, even though 4E isn't my system of choice, I think it has the best approach in implying that the rules are less important than the game. You can have very differing ideas of how something works, sometimes within the same group, and it doesn't have to be an untenable situation. Real life works this way too. There are as many ideas as there are people, and it's probably safe to say that most of them are right and wrong to varying degrees.


Even though 3E is the system I play, I only happened to use 3E quotes because I remember them the best, and the books happened to be sitting right next to me. It's probably a good thing I didn't have my 2E books, or any earlier edtion books, or I might have made an edition by edition breakdown - and that just wouldn't have been good for anyone (especially me - y'all might have wanted to lynch me after a page long post).

And thanks for the 2E quotes. These are the types of thread that I really like, because they get me thinking. I'd never really thought about this subject very much (as I said, it just hasn't come up in any of my games), but this thread has made me more ready to deal with this when it does. Thanks to the OP for starting it and thanks to everyone who contributed. This thread is chock full of good stuff.

 

[El Mahdi]

Nobody commented on my post from page 4, so I thought I'd post the link again.

Free PDF here:
Spell Slot item creation system.pdf

This is the spell slot item creation system. Someone 'round about page 5 suggested using up a number of spell slots based on the item's power. That's how this system works.

Sorry. I did DL it and look it over a bit. Not bad. It's got some stuff I like and may steal. However, even though I use 3E, I've basically houseruled out Vancian type casting for a more "At Will" type of approach. How would you work your system for 4E? That might give some idea for how to apply your concept to my game or a similiar game.

 

[der_kluge]

Sorry. I did DL it and look it over a bit. Not bad. It's got some stuff I like and may steal. However, even though I use 3E, I've basically houseruled out Vancian type casting for a more "At Will" type of approach. How would you work your system for 4E? That might give some idea for how to apply your concept to my game or a similiar game.

I don't know. I hate 4th edition too much to care, really. I haven't read enough about how they accomplished magic item creation in 4th edition to know what system they're using. Considering that in 3rd all magic items are based on some sort of spell (for the most part), and that they removed half the spells in 4th edition and only replaced a fraction of them with rituals, then creating all the items in 4th edition seems like a tricky proposition.

How do you create a Wind Fan if the Gust of Wind spell no longer exists to base it on?