I think we're done with 4E

Morale is the solution to long combats: just have opponents run away. It also happens to be more realistic (why wouldn't they, are they all that stupid/brave?). And, when a combat is close, and they don't run, then it can grow to nice, epic, proportions.

Variation is the response to predictability. Even simple use of terrain, movement and range can change things. Variation in opponents also helps, but I am guessing you did that. And of course this is true in many games.

Finally: being a rat bastard helps liven things up. I don't know what your mortality rate was like, but that real threat of charecter death can encourage creativity and break up routines.
 

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I haven't seen as many cool, creative moves as I would like. I'd like to see quite a few, though!

In the last game the Wizard cast Mage Hand to wrap a bugbear (who was standing in burning coals) in a sheet and light the sheet on fire.

Int vs. Ref attack, pretty simple. Damage, at first I pegged it at 1d6+Int Mod. He might as well have just used an at-will.

Then I checked page 42 for the damage expressions - I used the limited damage one because this move couldn't happen too often - and it read 3d6+4. So we changed that to 3d6+Int mod, ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends).

That made it a much better deal. I think we might see more creativity because of this.

Sounds like fun.:lol: The only problem with basing damage on perceived rarity is that soon it may become less rare. Knowing the damage potential of that move, the player may stock up on sheets and torches.
 

I don't know what your mortality rate was like, but that real threat of charecter death can encourage creativity and break up routines.

We'd had an early almost TPK early on when they got outmaneouvered by hobgoblins and some characters regularly dropped towards death saves. Thinking about it, it was the one player that didn't ever get close that said the system was too predictable, however he's also the player most prone to system optimization and created a character that always had an out, in this case a ranger. The other players had started to complain about always having the same set of options though and recognizing the point of the battle where things were effectively over and it started to be a grind.
 

Well, i'm enjoying 4e well enough as a DM, but i hate to say this, i really don't think i want to be a PLAYER in 4e. Does that sound weird? For one, i hate the magic system in 4e, it's the same thing as everything else with minor tweaks. As DM, i get to be every monster and thus enjoy a pretty vast array of powers and tactics i can throw against the party, rather than being a single character relegated to the same attacks over and over.

And although i own every supplement for Warhammer Fantasy, i have never played the game. But it looks like a ton of fun, as if they spliced D&D and Cthulhu. I was actually reading over the combat rules and magic in the core book last night and really wanted to play.

The combat is frigging lethal (expect characters to die frequently and bloodily) and the magic actually FEELS like magic, something wild and unpredictable and tainted with evil. Casting a spell can potentially kill your character, or get him possessed, or open a rift to hell. Worse case scenario of course, but it makes you think twice before rolling a handfull of dice for your most potent spell.

The only thing about Warhammer that doesn't jump out and grab me is the setting, although i love the grim and grittiness of it. Maybe it's the pseduo-European words and culture, but i feel a disconnect when i start reading about it. I would almost consider plopping the campaign in another world.
 

I agree. I sometimes think we're crazy when we complain that character x can only do these powers when previous editions had the option of move/attack or full attack. I've sat at the table saying but now you can do x,y, and z as well as b and c all the time. To which they say that once or twice was ok but on the 20th time doing exactly the same sequence of powers kind of lost its newness.

I think a lot of people have understated (or underestimated) the interplay of the tactical choices that previous editions, particularly 3e, actually have and how satisfying they actually can be in a diverse and interesting party.

In the Shackled City game I run, there are 3 characters built on tumbling and mobile melee (scout, dragon shaman, and swashbuckler) and two that you'd think were more toe-to-toe combatants (paladin, barbarian). But the paladin has a history of rolling low hit points, so he became more of a mobile charger as well, particularly after picking up enough bard levels to be able to cast swift fly. Had he not had variable hit points and not rolled low, he might have gone a more traditional route as a stand-up holy warrior.
And the way we play, there tends to be a lot of mobility vs # of attacks choices that have to be made. Most of my NPCs aren't going to stand too much in one place - the barbarian (who happens to be a half-ogre) is far too scary. So my monsters are moving around a lot, as are the PCs. The swashbuckler is frequently trading off mobility with multiple attacks with her two-weapon fighting. And that often becomes an interesting choice as she tries to find ways to lead the monsters between herself as hammer and the barbarian as anvil.

Now, I'll agree that keeping the game mobile and fluid has a lot to do with making combat particularly interesting. And I'll give 4e kudos for recognizing it. But by removing the choice of staying put and doing more damage vs moving and doing less damage, I think they've removed one of the really interesting tactical tradeoffs that combat games have. And you see it in plenty of other games too, not just D&D. Try to hit anything really effectively with a moving tank in Advanced Squad Leader or with a squad's advancing fire and you'll get the idea. Allowing players to have their cake and eat it too with respect to movement and damage removes the tradeoff of tactical position vs damage, leaving choices that I think a lot of us find less fulfilling in our game play.

I'm not really trying to bash 4e here. I'm mainly trying to point out how the combat choices available in 3e were actually more interesting than a lot of people seemed to realize with the design of 4e. And the choices presented as the solution to the reputedly limited choices of 3e may turn out to be a lot less interesting in the long run than they initially appear (particularly so, it seems to me, as they blend together as variations of the same thing when unleashed against the embarassment of elite and solo monster hit point wealth).
 

Sounds like fun.:lol: The only problem with basing damage on perceived rarity is that soon it may become less rare. Knowing the damage potential of that move, the player may stock up on sheets and torches.

I think that would be fine - they'd have to use at least two actions to get it to do basically encounter power damage. 1 action to get the sheet on someone and another to light it.

Though that first action might be to wrap the bad guy's head in the sheets, making him blind. Nice move, though you'd have to be in melee to do it. Unless you have some kind of magic spell that can manipulate objects at range...

Man, wizards are powerful in 4e, so many creative uses of their powers. ;)
 

Man, wizards are powerful in 4e, so many creative uses of their powers. ;)

Correction..........wizards can be powerful in your game because you have the DM skills to handle such situations well. I can't think of any mechanics from another edition that would handle that situation any better.

So I think its got nothing to do with 4E or any other edition. Its about the people at the table, not the rules. The better the group, the less detailed and fiddly the rules need to be.:p
 

We'd had an early almost TPK early on when they got outmaneouvered by hobgoblins and some characters regularly dropped towards death saves. Thinking about it, it was the one player that didn't ever get close that said the system was too predictable, however he's also the player most prone to system optimization and created a character that always had an out, in this case a ranger. The other players had started to complain about always having the same set of options though and recognizing the point of the battle where things were effectively over and it started to be a grind.

Note the bolded part. This says a lot. The Ranger is the most boring and predictable class in 4E, and nothing comes close.

As for that point of the battle where things are effectively over, that is truly something that happens. The thing is, things need to change at that point. Monsters should be able to see that point just as well as players and act accordingly, either to run away, surrender, or (and this is something you need to houserule) or sacrifice themselves in a blaze of glory by dropping their defenses to try to take somebody with them.
 

Of course, this is also be the point where players and DM would start adding their own powers, rituals, feats, and class options to make the game more interesting.
 

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